How much space will DV vs HD take up on a P2 at DVinfo.net

Paul Brady · February 27th, 2005, 10:26 AM

In other words how much shooting time can you get on a p2 card if shot dv or HD.

Chris Hurd · February 27th, 2005, 10:38 AM

See https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...ard/index.html, although I think that's an older page as it refers to 2GB and 4GB capacities for P2. An 8GB P2 card (which is an array of four 2GB SD cards) will hold 32 minutes of DVCPro, which is the same data rate as standard DV.

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 27th, 2005, 12:51 PM

On an 8 Gb card, you should be able to get:

32 minutes of DVCPRO25, which is the same thing as DV.
16 minutes of DVCPRO50.
8 minutes of DVCPROHD at 720p60 or 1080i.

At 720p24, you should get about 20 minutes, assuming the camera doesn't write duplicate frames to the card.

Derek Serra · February 27th, 2005, 02:18 PM

Good heavens - and this is what people are trumpeting as the Sony Z1 "killer". I shoot documentaries, often filming 100 hrs of footage BEFORE entering an edit suite! No way this camera will replace my Z1

Barry Green · February 27th, 2005, 02:46 PM

There are different uses for each camera. If you need long recording times, like Derek does, perhaps the Z1 would be the more practical camera for those purposes. But if you're used to working in a film workflow, the new P2 camera will be *very* familiar.

100 feet of 16mm film goes by in 2.5 minutes, same as 24P 720p on a 1-gigabyte card. So each gigabyte of storage is equivalent in runtime to a 100-ft roll of 16mm film.

In terms of 35mm film, a 1,000-ft magazine lasts about 10 minutes. So also would 720/24p last about 10 minutes on a 4-gig card. So a 4-gig card is equivalent in storage space to a 1000-ft magazine of 35mm film. (excepting, of course, that you don't have to process it, transfer it, etc., you can edit it immediately, you can delete unusable clips and record over them, and you can record over and over and over, vs. just once for film... and as opposed to tape, there are no dropouts, no flake-outs, no melting, no heat issues, no humidity hassles, no worries about dust, no moving parts, no hassles, no capturing, no digitizing...)

That's just P2 storage. We don't know for sure yet whether the camera will allow other means of recording (on an internal tape perhaps? although that seems unlikely... or on firewire-streaming to hard disk? Built-in hard disk even? We don't know yet).

Aaron Koolen · February 27th, 2005, 04:54 PM

From what I hear P2 is not cheap. So if the new Panasonic that's coming is meant to compete with the Z1 (i.e low end price point) then I would assume they'd support tape too, just so people can do it on the "cheap".

Aaron

Chris Hurd · February 27th, 2005, 05:03 PM

I would be perfectly happy if it didn't have a tape transport, but instead (in addition to P2) it supported direct-to-disk external recording hardware such as the FireStore.

Aaron Koolen · February 27th, 2005, 05:40 PM

It's still cheaper to do tape than buy a Firestore which aren't cheap and are also another bit of equipment you have hang off your camera. But I still wouldn't complain if it did do direct to disk - although I'd want proper, integrated control.

Aaron

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 27th, 2005, 05:45 PM

Come'on... I'm sure somebody --perhaps even Panasonic-- will figure a way to run a hard disk in the P2 slot, which is really just a PC-card slot. So no need to lug around another accessory or a laptop or a Panasonic P2 drive. Just pop the disks into the slots as needed.

There is a Toshiba 1.8 inch PC-Card that drive can handle more than 100 Mbps, the initial offering is 5 GB but it seems they can scale that up to 60 GB:
http://sdd.toshiba.com/main.aspx?Pat...00659C000003B7

More info:
http://www.synchrotech.com/products/hard-drives_01.html

It's even already available at B&H:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ist&sku=321959

Derek Serra · February 28th, 2005, 12:17 AM

"Come'on... I'm sure somebody --perhaps even Panasonic-- will figure a way to run a hard disk in the P2 slot, which is really just a PC-card slot. So no need to lug around another accessory or a laptop or a Panasonic P2 drive. Just pop the disks into the slots as needed."

Ignatio, you seem to be the eternal optimist as far as Panasonic's abilities are concerned. I think you guys are getting very excited over a camera which does not yet exist. Heaven help Panasonic if they can't deliver the wondercam that people are fantasizing about here. It's obvious to me that some people hate Sony so much that they'll rationalise any alternative as being better - even if it means only getting 10 mins of material on a $ 2000 P2 card at a time! Recording to HD would be a great option, but HD's are big and heavy, not just "popped" into a camera. They have to be powered - and when there's dust and heat or cold and vibration present, such as on typical film locations, they might just seize up!
Unless they can come up with a 200GB P2 card that sells for $50, it's gonna be a hard sell.

Simon Wyndham · February 28th, 2005, 06:18 AM

Derek I have to agree with you here. I do wonder what peoples reaction would be if it was Sony that was peddling $2000 for 10 minutes storage. I have a feeling it would be less than friendly.

I am, to be honest, absolutely astounded at the hostility some of the P2 supporters have against XDCAM. Some have even cited XDCAMs natural progression of the standard editing workflow as a disadvantage saying it is stuck in the past way of doing things. Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

HD storage, like you say is cumbersome. Personally I don't want to be lugging around a hard drive everywhere, and I am amazed that a lot of people are willing to, or even recommend, doing this. I have enough stuff to be carrying around without something extra just to get reliable storage.

My biggest problem is that many things being suggested are cumbersome workarounds for solutions that should be provided neatly by the manufacturers themselves in an all in one package.

When will people realise that as far as making money is conerned it doesn't matter one iota what P2 will cost in 2 years time, it matters what it costs now. Early supporters will get stung. Technology does become worthless rather quickly, but in P2's case when the price does come down, each of those $2000 cards will have been a seriously negative investment. That price point alone says categorically that P2 is not ready yet. It's a nice idea, but it's just not ready to go. Like Panasonic is rushing it out just to get a piece of the NLE camera pie.

Then there's the issue of possible changes to those types of cards size and format in the near future. What happens then?

I'm done with all of this. I'll use my camera to it's utmost. If people want to throw away money like that just to beg for even the smallest amount of HD footage, they are welcome to it. Personally I would rather spend that storage card money on a better lens, or a higher end camera, or any other number of things I can enhance my equipment with. Or just save the money, put it in a savings account towards my retirement.

Peter Jefferson · February 28th, 2005, 07:08 AM

god how many times does it have to be screamed... ??

there are LARGER P2 CARDS AVAILABLE

at the moment the largest ive seen is 128gb

by the time the cameras come out, one would expect it to double..

Simon Wyndham · February 28th, 2005, 07:20 AM

Makes no odds Peter. They are still ridiculously expensive. Like I said, replace Pansonic with Sony and I'm sure there would have been a much different reaction around here to P2. AFAIK the 128gb cards are not available yet. And if they were, given the price for a 4gb card how in the hell is anybody here going to be able afford one without remortgaging the house?!

I'm stunned by the support for this format as it stands.

Chris Hurd · February 28th, 2005, 07:28 AM

*sigh* this reminds me of our travails with HDV all over again.

For Derek and Simon, please be advised that we do NOT condone platform wars here at DV Info Net, nor do we allow personal attacks. There has been no hostility expressed here toward XDCAM or any other format that I can see. If you have a specific complaint, please contact me privately by email and we'll get things sorted out. Also, if you have decided that this is not the camera (or camera-to-be in this case) for your purposes, then please move on to our other boards -- we cover a wide variety of formats here. I will not allow a nay-sayer to camp out in a specific area and preach why it is inferior to their own favorite format, nor will I allow platform wars, or personal flames no matter how delicately they are couched. Debate the ideas, please, and if you have no interest in the P2 format, then you are definitely in the wrong forum. Thanks,

Joonas Kiviharju · March 3rd, 2005, 06:09 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green :

So a 4-gig card is equivalent in storage space to a 1000-ft magazine of 35mm film. (excepting, of course, that you don't have to process it, transfer it, etc., you can edit it immediately, you can delete unusable clips and record over them, and you can record over and over and over, vs. just once for film... and as opposed to tape, there are no dropouts, ......... no hassles, no capturing, no digitizing...)

-->>>

You claim that with P2 you don't have to transfer the footage, you don't have to capture it, and you don't have to digitize it. If the cards are going to be let's say ~2000$ for 20 minutes, 8GB, then an average prosumer can't propably afford more than two cards first. On anything reguiring more material than 40 minutes, I'd say you'd need to transfer your material on to some laptop, or to some harddrive. Otherwise your material costs are going to be huge. Even if those 8GB cards would sell for 100$, that would still cost too much for most people to keep the material on the P2 cards.

In my opinion, P2 and it's initial cost, are going to make the cameraperson transfer the material while shooting. So "you don't have to process it, transfer it, etc." or "no hassles, no capturing, no digitizing..." is not the way it is going to be, unless the cards cost - let's say - under 20$.

I'm very excited about P2 in the future, but I'd like to be reading good info on the media, not exaggeration on how easy it's going to be. (Unless you have some inside info that the cost of one card is really going to be cheap.)

I'm one of those people, who hope that the HDX100 will have tape, and that you could put DVCPROHD on it, and that the P2 would be there for the future. But, we'll see how well Pana has thought out the workflow and cost of media.

February 27th, 2005, 10:26 AM	#1
Paul Brady Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 43	How much space will DV vs HD take up on a P2 In other words how much shooting time can you get on a p2 card if shot dv or HD.

February 27th, 2005, 10:38 AM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	See https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...ard/index.html, although I think that's an older page as it refers to 2GB and 4GB capacities for P2. An 8GB P2 card (which is an array of four 2GB SD cards) will hold 32 minutes of DVCPro, which is the same data rate as standard DV. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 27th, 2005, 12:51 PM	#3
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	On an 8 Gb card, you should be able to get: 32 minutes of DVCPRO25, which is the same thing as DV. 16 minutes of DVCPRO50. 8 minutes of DVCPROHD at 720p60 or 1080i. At 720p24, you should get about 20 minutes, assuming the camera doesn't write duplicate frames to the card. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 27th, 2005, 02:18 PM	#4
Derek Serra Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 76	Good heavens - and this is what people are trumpeting as the Sony Z1 "killer". I shoot documentaries, often filming 100 hrs of footage BEFORE entering an edit suite! No way this camera will replace my Z1 __________________ Derek Antonio Serra Indie Filmmaker www.indv.co.za

February 27th, 2005, 04:54 PM	#6
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	From what I hear P2 is not cheap. So if the new Panasonic that's coming is meant to compete with the Z1 (i.e low end price point) then I would assume they'd support tape too, just so people can do it on the "cheap". Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

February 27th, 2005, 02:46 PM	#5
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	There are different uses for each camera. If you need long recording times, like Derek does, perhaps the Z1 would be the more practical camera for those purposes. But if you're used to working in a film workflow, the new P2 camera will be very familiar. 100 feet of 16mm film goes by in 2.5 minutes, same as 24P 720p on a 1-gigabyte card. So each gigabyte of storage is equivalent in runtime to a 100-ft roll of 16mm film. In terms of 35mm film, a 1,000-ft magazine lasts about 10 minutes. So also would 720/24p last about 10 minutes on a 4-gig card. So a 4-gig card is equivalent in storage space to a 1000-ft magazine of 35mm film. (excepting, of course, that you don't have to process it, transfer it, etc., you can edit it immediately, you can delete unusable clips and record over them, and you can record over and over and over, vs. just once for film... and as opposed to tape, there are no dropouts, no flake-outs, no melting, no heat issues, no humidity hassles, no worries about dust, no moving parts, no hassles, no capturing, no digitizing...) That's just P2 storage. We don't know for sure yet whether the camera will allow other means of recording (on an internal tape perhaps? although that seems unlikely... or on firewire-streaming to hard disk? Built-in hard disk even? We don't know yet).

February 27th, 2005, 05:03 PM	#7
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	I would be perfectly happy if it didn't have a tape transport, but instead (in addition to P2) it supported direct-to-disk external recording hardware such as the FireStore. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 27th, 2005, 05:40 PM	#8
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	It's still cheaper to do tape than buy a Firestore which aren't cheap and are also another bit of equipment you have hang off your camera. But I still wouldn't complain if it did do direct to disk - although I'd want proper, integrated control. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

February 27th, 2005, 05:45 PM	#9
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Come'on... I'm sure somebody --perhaps even Panasonic-- will figure a way to run a hard disk in the P2 slot, which is really just a PC-card slot. So no need to lug around another accessory or a laptop or a Panasonic P2 drive. Just pop the disks into the slots as needed. There is a Toshiba 1.8 inch PC-Card that drive can handle more than 100 Mbps, the initial offering is 5 GB but it seems they can scale that up to 60 GB: http://sdd.toshiba.com/main.aspx?Pat...00659C000003B7 More info: http://www.synchrotech.com/products/hard-drives_01.html It's even already available at B&H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ist&sku=321959 __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 28th, 2005, 12:17 AM	#10
Derek Serra Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 76	"Come'on... I'm sure somebody --perhaps even Panasonic-- will figure a way to run a hard disk in the P2 slot, which is really just a PC-card slot. So no need to lug around another accessory or a laptop or a Panasonic P2 drive. Just pop the disks into the slots as needed." Ignatio, you seem to be the eternal optimist as far as Panasonic's abilities are concerned. I think you guys are getting very excited over a camera which does not yet exist. Heaven help Panasonic if they can't deliver the wondercam that people are fantasizing about here. It's obvious to me that some people hate Sony so much that they'll rationalise any alternative as being better - even if it means only getting 10 mins of material on a $ 2000 P2 card at a time! Recording to HD would be a great option, but HD's are big and heavy, not just "popped" into a camera. They have to be powered - and when there's dust and heat or cold and vibration present, such as on typical film locations, they might just seize up! Unless they can come up with a 200GB P2 card that sells for $50, it's gonna be a hard sell. __________________ Derek Antonio Serra Indie Filmmaker www.indv.co.za

February 28th, 2005, 06:18 AM	#11
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Derek I have to agree with you here. I do wonder what peoples reaction would be if it was Sony that was peddling $2000 for 10 minutes storage. I have a feeling it would be less than friendly. I am, to be honest, absolutely astounded at the hostility some of the P2 supporters have against XDCAM. Some have even cited XDCAMs natural progression of the standard editing workflow as a disadvantage saying it is stuck in the past way of doing things. Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. HD storage, like you say is cumbersome. Personally I don't want to be lugging around a hard drive everywhere, and I am amazed that a lot of people are willing to, or even recommend, doing this. I have enough stuff to be carrying around without something extra just to get reliable storage. My biggest problem is that many things being suggested are cumbersome workarounds for solutions that should be provided neatly by the manufacturers themselves in an all in one package. When will people realise that as far as making money is conerned it doesn't matter one iota what P2 will cost in 2 years time, it matters what it costs now. Early supporters will get stung. Technology does become worthless rather quickly, but in P2's case when the price does come down, each of those $2000 cards will have been a seriously negative investment. That price point alone says categorically that P2 is not ready yet. It's a nice idea, but it's just not ready to go. Like Panasonic is rushing it out just to get a piece of the NLE camera pie. Then there's the issue of possible changes to those types of cards size and format in the near future. What happens then? I'm done with all of this. I'll use my camera to it's utmost. If people want to throw away money like that just to beg for even the smallest amount of HD footage, they are welcome to it. Personally I would rather spend that storage card money on a better lens, or a higher end camera, or any other number of things I can enhance my equipment with. Or just save the money, put it in a savings account towards my retirement.

February 28th, 2005, 07:08 AM	#12
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	god how many times does it have to be screamed... ?? there are LARGER P2 CARDS AVAILABLE at the moment the largest ive seen is 128gb by the time the cameras come out, one would expect it to double..

February 28th, 2005, 07:20 AM	#13
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Makes no odds Peter. They are still ridiculously expensive. Like I said, replace Pansonic with Sony and I'm sure there would have been a much different reaction around here to P2. AFAIK the 128gb cards are not available yet. And if they were, given the price for a 4gb card how in the hell is anybody here going to be able afford one without remortgaging the house?! I'm stunned by the support for this format as it stands.

February 28th, 2005, 07:28 AM	#14
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	sigh this reminds me of our travails with HDV all over again. For Derek and Simon, please be advised that we do NOT condone platform wars here at DV Info Net, nor do we allow personal attacks. There has been no hostility expressed here toward XDCAM or any other format that I can see. If you have a specific complaint, please contact me privately by email and we'll get things sorted out. Also, if you have decided that this is not the camera (or camera-to-be in this case) for your purposes, then please move on to our other boards -- we cover a wide variety of formats here. I will not allow a nay-sayer to camp out in a specific area and preach why it is inferior to their own favorite format, nor will I allow platform wars, or personal flames no matter how delicately they are couched. Debate the ideas, please, and if you have no interest in the P2 format, then you are definitely in the wrong forum. Thanks, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 3rd, 2005, 06:09 AM	#15
Joonas Kiviharju Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 52	<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : So a 4-gig card is equivalent in storage space to a 1000-ft magazine of 35mm film. (excepting, of course, that you don't have to process it, transfer it, etc., you can edit it immediately, you can delete unusable clips and record over them, and you can record over and over and over, vs. just once for film... and as opposed to tape, there are no dropouts, ......... no hassles, no capturing, no digitizing...) -->>> You claim that with P2 you don't have to transfer the footage, you don't have to capture it, and you don't have to digitize it. If the cards are going to be let's say ~2000$ for 20 minutes, 8GB, then an average prosumer can't propably afford more than two cards first. On anything reguiring more material than 40 minutes, I'd say you'd need to transfer your material on to some laptop, or to some harddrive. Otherwise your material costs are going to be huge. Even if those 8GB cards would sell for 100$, that would still cost too much for most people to keep the material on the P2 cards. In my opinion, P2 and it's initial cost, are going to make the cameraperson transfer the material while shooting. So "you don't have to process it, transfer it, etc." or "no hassles, no capturing, no digitizing..." is not the way it is going to be, unless the cards cost - let's say - under 20$. I'm very excited about P2 in the future, but I'd like to be reading good info on the media, not exaggeration on how easy it's going to be. (Unless you have some inside info that the cost of one card is really going to be cheap.) I'm one of those people, who hope that the HDX100 will have tape, and that you could put DVCPROHD on it, and that the P2 would be there for the future. But, we'll see how well Pana has thought out the workflow and cost of media.