P2 Media Information

Bob Zimmerman · February 16th, 2005, 01:23 PM

Maybe the P2HD will be announced for release in about 2 years. But then they will also announce a native 16:9 DVX200 lead free for release now. From reading the post about the P2 media it still sounds a few years off. Not enough storage and high cost.

Lawrence Bansbach · February 16th, 2005, 06:41 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Andreas Fernbrant : <<<--

Remeber the 4gig card only hold about 4 minutes of film. To me, that's a job by it self changeing the cards all the time. That's why they have camera loaders for film.. A 60GB hardrive only holds 60 minutes of footage, so their hardrive is worth in time as much as a tape, but costs over 10 times more! -->>>

I think your arithmetic is a little off. A mini-DV cassette, at about 11 GB, holds about 1 hour. DVCPRO HD, at four times the data rate (100 Mbps), would require 44-45 GB for an hour (so 60 GB should hold about 80 minutes), regardless of whether 24p or 60p is recorded. But there is speculation that the P2 card format might permit a reduced data rate of 40 Mbps for 24p. If so, 60 GB would hold 2.5 x 80 minutes, or 200 minutes of 24p HD footage, and a 4-GB P2 card would hold about 13 minutes.

Barry Green · February 16th, 2005, 11:45 PM

Quote:

do you think it would be ok or a good workflow to every 4 minutes of shooting have to stop to change the card and put the other card to be tranferred to the hardrive? What about when your client is right behind your sholder and are worried about every minute they have to pay for.

Why do you have to stop anything? Just pull the full card out of the camera and keep recording on the empty card in the other slot. When the card is offloaded/empty, plug it back in. Using this technique you could theoretically record *endlessly*, rather than having to stop to change tapes, etc. And it would maybe need only two cards to do it, although maybe it would need three cards.

(this presupposes that the camera will have at least two slots, which I would think is a *very* safe assumption. The SPX800 has, I think, five slots).

If you have only one card, then you have to treat it more like a film camera with one magazine. Unload it, reload it, and start shooting again.

Robert Mann Z. · February 17th, 2005, 12:04 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Why do you have to stop anything? Just pull the full card out of the camera and keep recording on the empty card in the other slot. -->>>

ahh i already miss the good ole days when all you had to do was shoot...

i take it this becomes a two man (or woman) job....no way can i shoot and worry about transfering priceless footage to laptop (or other device) then deleting the card then going back to shooting...

not to mention the deleting part make me a bit nervous

i feel a little old for this type of shooting

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 17th, 2005, 09:22 AM

Relax Robert. There is reason to believe you will be able to pop a hard disk straight into the P2 slot, as it seems to be just a Panasonic-branded PC-card interface, just like Sony prefers to call IEEE1394 "iLink".

Andreas Fernbrant · February 17th, 2005, 09:25 AM

Where did you find that information Ignacio?

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 17th, 2005, 09:30 AM

There are no announcments in that direction yet, but it just makes sense. You can --for example-- put IBM microdrives into CompactFlash slots in digicams and PDA's, allthough they were not designed to use hard disks. Basically a PC-card interface is a PCI interface, you can plug whatever you want into that, assuming that what you plug in knows how to talk to the host and what to do with the data. So it could also be possible to use the interface to connect a network card that talks to a computer, and that could even be a wireless network card. Imagine the possibilites!

Robert Mann Z. · February 17th, 2005, 09:40 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : There are no announcments in that direction yet, -->>>

i speculate that there won't be any, the AJ-SPX800 is a p2 system and it is propritary in that only p2 cards can be used...

but in general i understand why pana had to do this, just don't think its for me...

ohhh thanks for telling me to relax, i feel better now

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 17th, 2005, 10:29 AM

I think Panasonic would be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't allow the interface to be usable by third parties.

Jan? Hope you are following this thread and forwarding the info. I for one would NEVER buy a Panasonic camera if it's PC-card interface is limited to only talking to Panasonic cards. Even if Panasonic offers hard disks in the PC-card form factor, there would not be enough competition. P2 itself benefits from the PC-card standard that anyone can use, the industry and consumers would see it as an unfair practice to lock out everybody using industry standard technology. It would be as if Sony had not allowed their cameras to talk over IEEE1394 to any computer which is not a Vaio.

> in general i understand why pana had to do this

Why would it be?

Mark Ross · February 17th, 2005, 04:35 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : I think Panasonic would be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't allow the interface to be usable by third parties. -->>>

I agree. From Panasonic's P2 section on their web site, my bolding for emphasis: "P2, which stands for Professional Plug-in, is a compact solid-state memory card designed for professional AV use. Compliant with PC Card standards (Type II), the P2 card plugs directly into the card slot of a laptop PC.* AV data on the card mounts instantly, with each cut as MXF and metadata file. The data can be used immediately – no digitizing necessary - for nonlinear editing, or it can be transferred over a network. *The P2 card driver (bundled with all P2 cams, decks and drives) must be installed.The P2 card driver operates under Windows XP and Windows 2000."

This says to me that the P2 is compliant in any PC-card slot. Thus, isn't this suggesting that a third party could make a PC-card compatible card for the camera with either greater storage capacity, or perhaps connectors to an external recording device?

Yes, it's expensive and ridiculous now to consider 4-8 mins on a card, but Panny is looking ahead to those 64GB cards in 2007... ;)

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...card/img03.jpg

Gary McClurg · February 19th, 2005, 07:05 PM

Check out HD For Indies.

Some guy claims larger cards will be there when the camera hits.

Not sure if you can cut and paste from site to site.

Chris Hurd · February 19th, 2005, 09:09 PM

Posting content from other sites is not cool. However, Mike Curtis, the owner of HD For Indies (an awesome blog by the way) is a member here and I'll ask him to chime in about this here.

Peter Jefferson · February 21st, 2005, 04:29 AM

does anyone have any webspace they can donate?? I have a brochure here whch goes through the differences of the SD array and the actual larger P2's (up to 128gb)
It also goes through details very similar to this webpge, but it actually exaplins how the cards work etc etc

if anyone wants it, im happy to scan it and post it

Peter Jefferson · February 21st, 2005, 04:31 AM

everyones worried about thsi 4 gb thing.. guys there are larger cards out there. believe me, ive seen them.. at the moment the largest ive seen is 128g.. yes its expensive, but it exists..

Chris Hurd · February 21st, 2005, 08:48 AM

Sure, Peter, we have room for your scans here at DV Info. Just shoot me an email.

February 17th, 2005, 09:22 AM	#20
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Relax Robert. There is reason to believe you will be able to pop a hard disk straight into the P2 slot, as it seems to be just a Panasonic-branded PC-card interface, just like Sony prefers to call IEEE1394 "iLink". __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 17th, 2005, 09:30 AM	#22
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	There are no announcments in that direction yet, but it just makes sense. You can --for example-- put IBM microdrives into CompactFlash slots in digicams and PDA's, allthough they were not designed to use hard disks. Basically a PC-card interface is a PCI interface, you can plug whatever you want into that, assuming that what you plug in knows how to talk to the host and what to do with the data. So it could also be possible to use the interface to connect a network card that talks to a computer, and that could even be a wireless network card. Imagine the possibilites! __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 17th, 2005, 10:29 AM	#24
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	I think Panasonic would be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't allow the interface to be usable by third parties. Jan? Hope you are following this thread and forwarding the info. I for one would NEVER buy a Panasonic camera if it's PC-card interface is limited to only talking to Panasonic cards. Even if Panasonic offers hard disks in the PC-card form factor, there would not be enough competition. P2 itself benefits from the PC-card standard that anyone can use, the industry and consumers would see it as an unfair practice to lock out everybody using industry standard technology. It would be as if Sony had not allowed their cameras to talk over IEEE1394 to any computer which is not a Vaio. > in general i understand why pana had to do this Why would it be? __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 19th, 2005, 09:09 PM	#27
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Posting content from other sites is not cool. However, Mike Curtis, the owner of HD For Indies (an awesome blog by the way) is a member here and I'll ask him to chime in about this here. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 21st, 2005, 08:48 AM	#30
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Sure, Peter, we have room for your scans here at DV Info. Just shoot me an email. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 16th, 2005, 01:23 PM	#16
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	Maybe the P2HD will be announced for release in about 2 years. But then they will also announce a native 16:9 DVX200 lead free for release now. From reading the post about the P2 media it still sounds a few years off. Not enough storage and high cost.

February 16th, 2005, 06:41 PM	#17
Lawrence Bansbach Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 295	<<<-- Originally posted by Andreas Fernbrant : <<<-- Remeber the 4gig card only hold about 4 minutes of film. To me, that's a job by it self changeing the cards all the time. That's why they have camera loaders for film.. A 60GB hardrive only holds 60 minutes of footage, so their hardrive is worth in time as much as a tape, but costs over 10 times more! -->>> I think your arithmetic is a little off. A mini-DV cassette, at about 11 GB, holds about 1 hour. DVCPRO HD, at four times the data rate (100 Mbps), would require 44-45 GB for an hour (so 60 GB should hold about 80 minutes), regardless of whether 24p or 60p is recorded. But there is speculation that the P2 card format might permit a reduced data rate of 40 Mbps for 24p. If so, 60 GB would hold 2.5 x 80 minutes, or 200 minutes of 24p HD footage, and a 4-GB P2 card would hold about 13 minutes.

February 17th, 2005, 12:04 AM	#19
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Why do you have to stop anything? Just pull the full card out of the camera and keep recording on the empty card in the other slot. -->>> ahh i already miss the good ole days when all you had to do was shoot... i take it this becomes a two man (or woman) job....no way can i shoot and worry about transfering priceless footage to laptop (or other device) then deleting the card then going back to shooting... not to mention the deleting part make me a bit nervous i feel a little old for this type of shooting

February 17th, 2005, 09:25 AM	#21
Andreas Fernbrant Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sweden - Helsingborg Posts: 283	Where did you find that information Ignacio?

February 17th, 2005, 09:40 AM	#23
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : There are no announcments in that direction yet, -->>> i speculate that there won't be any, the AJ-SPX800 is a p2 system and it is propritary in that only p2 cards can be used... but in general i understand why pana had to do this, just don't think its for me... ohhh thanks for telling me to relax, i feel better now

February 17th, 2005, 04:35 PM	#25
Mark Ross Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bozeman, MT Posts: 79	<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : I think Panasonic would be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't allow the interface to be usable by third parties. -->>> I agree. From Panasonic's P2 section on their web site, my bolding for emphasis: "P2, which stands for Professional Plug-in, is a compact solid-state memory card designed for professional AV use. Compliant with PC Card standards (Type II), the P2 card plugs directly into the card slot of a laptop PC.* AV data on the card mounts instantly, with each cut as MXF and metadata file. The data can be used immediately – no digitizing necessary - for nonlinear editing, or it can be transferred over a network. *The P2 card driver (bundled with all P2 cams, decks and drives) must be installed.The P2 card driver operates under Windows XP and Windows 2000." This says to me that the P2 is compliant in any PC-card slot. Thus, isn't this suggesting that a third party could make a PC-card compatible card for the camera with either greater storage capacity, or perhaps connectors to an external recording device? Yes, it's expensive and ridiculous now to consider 4-8 mins on a card, but Panny is looking ahead to those 64GB cards in 2007... ;) https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...card/img03.jpg

February 19th, 2005, 07:05 PM	#26
Gary McClurg Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 389	Check out HD For Indies. Some guy claims larger cards will be there when the camera hits. Not sure if you can cut and paste from site to site.

February 21st, 2005, 04:29 AM	#28
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	does anyone have any webspace they can donate?? I have a brochure here whch goes through the differences of the SD array and the actual larger P2's (up to 128gb) It also goes through details very similar to this webpge, but it actually exaplins how the cards work etc etc if anyone wants it, im happy to scan it and post it

February 21st, 2005, 04:31 AM	#29
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	everyones worried about thsi 4 gb thing.. guys there are larger cards out there. believe me, ive seen them.. at the moment the largest ive seen is 128g.. yes its expensive, but it exists..