New DVCPro HD / P2

[Jan Crittenden Livingston]

Joe Carney asked: Jan, can we expect the final coming of dv100 in an affordable camera. I remember that both Panasonic and JVC came up with that spec in the late 90's.

Actually what JVC was offering for HD was a 30Frame 720P, what we offer in the Varicam is 720P/60 and in the upcoming HDX400, 1080i

> Seeing that D9 and DVCPRO50 were interchangable (recording from one vtr to another), I figure that even though you are competitors, you will both come out with a superior answer to HDV. 4:2:2 I frame sounds like the real deal.

Well the JVC guys are chasing down the HDV dragon, and will be introducing their new $20,000 camera that they intimated about last year. We on the other hand think that what people want is a lowcost DVCPROHD. The editing solutions are already inplace with Apple FCP and Avid Express Pro HD.

>And I bet most will accept a new tape format if the quality is there. Anyway, thanks for the tip. Looking forward to the rest of this year.

But DVCPROHD is not a new tape format, but this little camera will not record to tape, rather to memory, P2 cards. No moving parts except those in the lens. I think it is going to change the world. But then what do I know.

Best regards,

Jan

Note from Chris Hurd: This thread was split from its original location at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=38727.

[Greg Boston]

----->
... we just bought another DVX100A last week for an upcoming low-budget indie feature. We placed the order but had to wait almost two weeks to get it, because EVS was sold out! So I don't think there's any backlog of cameras, EVS literally had to wait for their shipment to come in, and the quote they gave us was "these things are selling like hotcakes". And EVS just raised their price by $100. <----

Wow Barry, that's interesting indeed. I made my statements based on the fact that it's a failrly common retail tactic to use rebates. Typically rebate=we've got too many of this model and must sell some. There can be different reasons for this of course. Jan's explanation of thwarting the grey market thugs is the first time I have heard of this tactic.

Besides, it's fun to stir the pot 'a little' sometimes. It gets folks talking.

regards,

=gb=

[Peter Jefferson]

"But DVCPROHD is not a new tape format, but this little camera will not record to tape, rather to memory, P2 cards. No moving parts except those in the lens. I think it is going to change the world. But then what do I know."

I agree.. hell when balanced with the queries i get about the firestores this completely turns them obsolete.. i was going to actaulyl buy an FS4 for each cam, but when i found out about the P2 system being used for the DVCPROHD cams (i stand corected with the name of the format, as it was poitned out to me) ill gladly stick with tape until th new cams are out.

THIS is what its al about...

[Barry Green]

I'm really amped on the whole DVCPRO-HD thing. For one, as Jan says, it's *not* a new format -- it's been on the market for three years now. No variable compression artifacts, you can edit with desktop systems today, no long-form GOP...

But the P2 thing has some amazing advantages.

First, it's completely silent -- no moving parts, no noise.

Second, there are absolutely *no* dropouts of any type.

Third, the ruggedness and reliability are greatly improved -- there's a post on another forum of a guy testing the SPX800 (a P2 camera) and the salesman demo'ing it actually bounced it on the floor a few times, to demonstrate that there's just no dropout.

Fourth, it provides for potentially infinite record times -- assuming there's more than one P2 slot there. You can take a laptop computer with you, and when you start recording, as soon as one card is full the camera will automatically switch over to the next card. So you can pluck the "full" card out, and slide it right into your laptop's cardbus slot, copy the contents off to your hard disk, and then plug the card back in the camera. Using this technique you could get record times of -- well, as long as you have hard disk space for! Continuous recording of an 8-hour event? No problem, as long as you've got enough hard disk space!

Fifth, this could mean the end of needing to run out and buy blank tapes. With a couple of P2 cards and a laptop/hard disk, you'd have all the record time you'd ever need.

Sixth, your footage is ready to edit immediately. No capture at all, and you can actually edit from the cards themselves, you don't even have to copy the footage to your hard drive. In fact, apparently the SPX800 camera can be used as a sort of hard disk type of proxy itself -- you can plug the camera into your computer through a USB 2.0 cable and the computer will see it as an external hard disk, making all your footage (on the P2 cards that are plugged into the camera) available immediately, instant playback, instant transfer... I have no idea obviously about whether the new prosumer camera would have that same feature, but it sure sounds promising.

Oh, and seventh -- you don't need a deck! I was concerned about DVCPRO-HD for prosumers because the cheapest deck with a firewire port is $21,000... but you don't need a deck AT ALL --just plug the P2 cards straight into the computer... and because they're cardbus cards, you don't even need a memory card reader. If you want to export to DVCPRO-HD tape you'd need access to a tape deck, but for mastering HD-DVD's or blu-ray or whatever, you may not even need to buy a deck.

Oh, and eighth -- you don't have to be cabled to the camera! The world knows I love DV Rack and I'm buying an FS-4 the day they're released, but being tethered to the laptop (DV Rack) or to the HD recorder is annoying, and very limiting for some types of shooting. But with the P2 system, there's no cable involved, you just pop the card out and plug it into the laptop. I think that's a convenience that we'll really grow to love.

(but I still want to see a firewire output with on-the-fly downconversion, like the FX1/Z1 do, so we can still use DV Rack!)

Overall, very promising, I can't wait to see what gets actually announced... if it has all that we love about the DVX, and adds HD resolution and P2 recording, it could be a huge hit!

[Joe Carney]

Jan, I thought 720/60p at 8bit 4:2:2 was the official dv100 spec?

[Jan Crittenden Livingston]

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Carney : Jan, I thought 720/60p at 8bit 4:2:2 was the official dv100 spec? -->>>

It can be either 1080i or 720P/60. We have two different cameras and both are DVCPROHD.

Best,

Jan

[Simon Wyndham]

http://b-roll.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php...1;t=007904;p=2

Look for the post by Marvin and notice the bit about the card formats changing size.

The other problem is that P2 is prohibitively expensive for SD video, let alone HD!

Don't get me wrong, P2 is a great idea, but is way, way, way ahead of it's time.

[Glenn Gipson]

If you're reading this Jan, I sure would like to know how DVCPROHD (100) can fit on Mini DV Tape. How is this even remotely possible without any additional compression?

[Jan Crittenden Livingston]

Hi,

The tensile strength is just not there to record the DVCPROHD signal on an Mini-DV tape, it just cannot travel fast enough in the transport area.

Does that help?

Jan

[Glenn Gipson]

Thanks for answering Jan (it's so sad that Panasonic is the only company with a rep that comes onto these boards.)

[Ashley Cooper]

Jan, I don't know if you can answer this, but is this the variable frame rate a la the varicam? 24p with the possibility of under/overcranking would be pretty much the holy grail. 35mm depth of field and it would pretty much be perfection, but that's too much to hope for I know.
Also, when you say around the price of the Z1, are we talking the $5K range or the $10K range? I read in another forum to expect to pay around $10K, but I believe the Z1 is going for about $5K.
Again, sorry if you can't answer these questions, but I couldn't help myself. This cam really sounds amazing.

[Jan Crittenden Livingston]

Unfortunately I really am under a lock down on information and cannot answer the question. I really wish I could. I am authorized to say three things. under $10,000, DVCPRO25/50/HD and 24P.

Stay tuned,

Jan

[Simon Wyndham]

I'll make a stab in the dark guess.

DVCpro will record to the MiniDV tape in the camera.
DVCPro 50/HD will record to the P2 cards in the camera.

I think that the camera will probably be DVCpro25 out of the box so you can get shooting right away. But if you pay the extra for a P2 card or two you can start recording HD footage with it, hence the under $10,000 figure. Say, $4k for the camera, and another $4k for enough P2 to make HD recordings?

Sounds okay to me if that is the case. It will mean that although it will be expensive to get a P2 card for the camera at least Pansonic won't have compromised data rate just to go to MiniDV tape.

[Michael Struthers]

According to this, it's 25 mbps to tape, 50 mbps to P2 cards.

Which would be clever, it's an attempt to future-proof the cam for a couple years at least until 1080p comes out, and also may give Panasonic a another revenue stream.

I am really really liking this cam. It's going to have great color and resolution, even at 25 mbps at dvcpro levels. And 24p.

It still won't look like film, but neither does the dvx.

[Laurence Maher]

It won't look like film, but in my opinion, will be the FIRST camcorder that the real low budget indie film makers can use to put their work on the BIG SCREEN and TRUELY COMPETE with the Hollywood system.

Not film, but it DOES work.

Panasonic . . . I . . . love . . . you.