New DVCPro HD / P2

[Jason Brunner]

Jan,

I love my DVX100A, it is simply an unbelievable camera for the money.

If I was going to fault anything about it, it would be the viewfinder/LCD. (with full recognition of what's possible, versus money and other"big picture" thinking.)

So, with respect, and from my little world, I echo the wishes of some previous posts.

In regard to data storage (tape, p2, giant p2, third party cards, camera mountable hard disks, magic codecs du jour, blah blah blah) its my hope that I would be able to take this camera on the road for a couple of weeks and return home with the aprox 600 minutes of HD footage I would shoot for two episodics, with low hassles and reliabilty. My current HD cameras are all Arriflex.

I really don't care if it writes its data on peanut butter cubes in sanscrit, so long as its reliable, affordable, and I can shoot for an hour or so without breaking down the production, and i can easily and safely store the data.

This is the message from my world. Other peoples worlds may differ.

Thanks

[Pete Wilie]

If you've never been directly involved in the design, development, test, and production of a product it may be hard to understand and appreciate the lead time necessary to bring a product to market.

The final design features MUST be frozen well in advance of production in order to properly test and evaluate the product. During/after testing, usually ONLY the most critical flaws/defects are corrected (and re-tested). The introduction of new design features after the start of testing can have significant, unintended, negative consequences because the product may not have been properly tested prior to production.

While we all desire lots of great features, we all require that the camera work flawlessly, and as advertised. This requires exhaustive testing of a frozen design.

Panasonic has clearly shown that they listen to their customers -- the DVX100 --> DVX100A is a perfect example.

So we shouldn't expect nor pressure Panasonic to be making design changes for the HD camera(s) to be announced at the April 2005 NAB -- it's only a month away!!

[Ignacio Rodriguez]

> So we shouldn't expect nor pressure Panasonic
> to be making design changes for the HD camera(s)
> to be announced at the April 2005 NAB -- it's only
> a month away!!

I see your point. But the request I have voiced --that is for the P2 slot to be able to use a PC-card hard disk-- is in essence a software feature, it does not alter the physical design of the camera. Also, some requests we are making now can be answered by Panasonic in the way of accesories, deals with other companies and so on.

[Pete Wilie]

Software/firmware is more difficult to test than hardware -- it does NOT have to follow the laws of physics. :-)

The last thing one wants to do is make a last minute software change -- the risk of unintended consequences are great!

Why don't we let Panasonic get the camera out the door before we tell them how to redesign it. :-) I would expect there will be future versions/updates to this camera giving us many opportunities for us to provide meaningful feedback to the manufacturer.

Jan has been very gracious and generous with her time here, and has provided incredibly detailed answers -- much more so than any other camera manufacturer I've seen. Let's not run her off. As soon as the new camera hits the streets I'm sure we'll have many questions we would like to ask her. She is an invaluable resource. Her presence here certainly makes me want to strongly consider Panasonic over other brands.

[Aaron Koolen]

-->>> Her presence here certainly makes me want to strongly consider Panasonic over other brands. -->>>

Likewise. I'm lucky to be in the position where I don't have clients and no real need to upgrade now but I see my XM2 being a little too long in the tooth by the end of the year. Being someone who doesn't want to go the HDV route, I am very interested in what Panasonic will offer.

Aaron

[Laurence Maher]

Hey Jan,

You've heard of this new camera coming out by JVC, the GY-HD100. How do think your camera will compare to this one?

[Jan Crittenden Livingston]

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : Hey Jan,

You've heard of this new camera coming out by JVC, the GY-HD100. How do think your camera will compare to this one? -->>>

Well the JVC camera will still be a flavor of HDV, which means it is a low data rate, which means that it is still 4:2:0 and compressed audio. It should be interesting to see how they do the 24P and still make the camera record in 60Hz. Unless it is an all new HDV deviant and then that screws up the works for editing. If all of this is resolved, I would be this little camera would smoke the Sony Z1.

That said, up against the Panasonic there are features that it just can't stack up against. Higher data rate, means more info, means uncompressed audio and 4:2:2. DVCPRO, DVCPRO50 and DVCPROHD in editing systems that are supporting it for years. So this camera works in an extensible codec, that allows you to do DV one day HD the next day support the SDX900 camera the next day and the only compromise is the one that we made on compression in the first place back when we said okay, highest quality we can get at three levels of compression, all I frame, intra frame, all uncompressed audio and some have more than two channels but all are at 16 bit, 48kHz. And that is the stuff I can talk about that reassures me that the p2HD camera will be a smokin' camcorder.

Soon,

Jan

[Bill Anderson]

This has been one very informative thread, from codecs to bagpipes.
(I'm Scottish) Jan, since you mentioned darkroom work, and I got into Film (albeit on a pretty modest indie level) after twenty yrs. of still photography you might want to take a gander @ www.williamanderson.ca It doesn't move, but...

[Laurence Maher]

Thanks Jan,

Mmmmmm.

4:2:2

High data rate.

DVCProHD . . . mmmmmm . . . Jan, you're my hero.

[Laurence Maher]

Uh-Oh Jan,

Just heard about this very possible "uncompressed component output" on the new JVC camera. Go to:

http://www.videosystems.com/e-newsletters/HDVatWork_3_23/index.html/#1

It mentions uncompressed out at 720/60p, but the guys here (and most of them are smarter than me) pretty much insist that if it can do 60p, it will do all the standard progressive frame rates, including 24p. You might check the article and tell me how you think the camera compares now. I'd be VERY interested in knowing (given the above speculation is correct), your stance on the possible quality differences between this new HDX-100 and the JVC model.

The JVC comes with interchangeable lens system as well, mentions cinema-gamma, I think 2 XLR inputs. In order to use the uncompressed component out, it also said you have to get a special SDI converter or something, so I'm sure that can't be too inexpensive.

Personally, I like all my puzzle pieces to fit together, so I would have a hard time not going with DVCProHD codec, as my Macintosh FCP HD Editing system is already solidly compatible. If I had to go SDI, I'm sure I now have to deal with getting an extra capture card and yada yada yada. The JVC articles mention that the uncomponent signal output can be coverted to "any type quick time file" with a free shareware, which I assume will quickly become common, but I'm not so sure I trust SDI converters and software converters to not give me all sorts of problems trying to get a clean and wonderful HD signal imported, edited, then exported via FCP HD.

I'm no techy, so anything that can go wrong will. Quality meeting efficiency in filmmaking for me seems to point to the hdx-100, but I must admit the word "uncompressed" carries a lot of weight in the world of HD cinema filmmaking.

Please give me comments/comparisons on all this.

Thanks so much!

Laurence

[Ian Slessor]

Hi,

A number of people have mentioned this new camera being capable of 60p

Specifically Laurence Maher states, QUOTE "It mentions uncompressed out at 720/60p, but the guys here (and most of them are smarter than me) pretty much insist that if it can do 60p, it will do all the standard progressive frame rates, including 24p."

Is 60p sixty progressive frames per second thus allowing real slow motion or is it another way of saying 60i?

I hope it doesn't sound dense but it's been bugging me.

Thanks for humouring me.

sincerely,

ian

[Kevin Dooley]

60p is most definately 60 progressive frames per second, allowing smooth slomo for 30p and 24p projects.

I too have read that the JVC does uncompressed 60p, here on this board, on the HDV@work article, and also on the wesa website, before the information was pulled. From what I can tell, this should be fairly accurate information. Now whether or not it will do other frame rates... dunno. One would assume that it would, but we all know what they say about assumptions...

[Barry Green]

The JVC info is saying that it'll shoot 60p uncompressed, but not record it at all (uncompressed or compressed).

60p uncompressed on the component outputs is fine and dandy for studio work where you may have the computers, RAIDs, and infrastructure to handle a data rate of 166 megabytes per second... but who has that? What kind of RAID would it take to even be able to capture that data stream?

For live switching or direct to broadcast maybe it'd be appropriate, but being able to actually record 60p is what you'd most likely want (to tape, to P2, to whatever). The JVC apparently has no provision to do so. Hopefully the Panasonic will.

[Laurence Maher]

Yes, the JVC would need a computer of some kind on set to capture the signal. I'm thinking a laptop with some large storage and external drives. JVC camera comes with an HD-SDI converter. So a card would be necessary too. Is all the extra crap worth it? Well, if your planning to project your movie to a big screen, it just might be. Hopefully one could figure out a fairly inexpensive storage solution.

[Jan Crittenden Livingston]

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : Yes, the JVC would need a computer of some kind on set to capture the signal. I'm thinking a laptop with some large storage and external drives. JVC camera comes with an HD-SDI converter. So a card would be necessary too. Is all the extra crap worth it? Well, if your planning to project your movie to a big screen, it just might be. Hopefully one could figure out a fairly inexpensive storage solution. -->>>

Laurence, Sorry I didn't get back to your question the other day, but the fact that the JVC has an uncompressed output is no different than the FX1 having an uncompressed output. You could take the signal from either and run it into an HD/SDI conversion device, could be somewhere n the +$2000 range and then the video will start to eat up your hard drives to the tune of 994Mbs a second. That is what an HD signal looks like in uncompressed with no prefilter.

Then you just have to ask yourself is the performance of the camera up to the task. Can you get more than 4 stops of latitude with it? What is the low light performance and does your shooting style allow you to take the computer with you? Can you utilize the camera as it is standing, in HDV? Which edit systems support this 720P/24?


The JVC camera does not come with the HD/SDI converter, it has a analog HD signal which can be converted.

Hope that helps,

Jan

PS. And I don't believe for a second that this camera will be any better than the P2 HD camera, and certainly will not be a feature rich or as flexible.