New DVCPro HD / P2

Laurence Maher · April 3rd, 2005, 10:13 PM

Ya guys, the panny will be awesome but let's not get ahead of ourselves. A company announcing a camera for under 10 k means it will be $9,999.99, and if you buy in state, throw in taxes to boot . . . however . . . .

Does this really matter? The Panny is UN-TOUCHABLE for that price, with that codec in 1080p. Yes, the interchangeable lenses on the JVC is great, but please, HDV codec? And if you use it's uncompressed out (with the understanding that their definition of "uncompressed" is may be as sucky as the Sony Z-1 "uncompressed" out, which has a registered color space of less than 2:1:1 after transfered to computer with top end AJA cards) you'll have to get a specialized HD-SDI converter and then drag around a raid system around for footage acquistion? No dice.

But Panny hit snake eyes with theirs. Awesome quality image and incredible shooting convenience to boot. I think it's possible that this camera is going to be the greatest invention for Hollywood bound indy filmmakers since . . . well, maybe EVER.

If the lens is a decent one, which it probably will be, and you've got FCP HD for nearly flawless computer editing, you'll be making movies . . . I mean REAL ones, none of that first college project crap.

Is this, or is this not worth 10 k?

Kevin Dooley · April 3rd, 2005, 10:16 PM

Everyone keeps saying that since Panny said under $10k, that it must be $9,999.99...but the FX/Z1s are nowhere near that, and when the specs were first announced it was said to also be "under $10k". Under $10k can mean alot of things--the actual MSRP may not even be set yet! But most of all, it can mean $3400, $6700, or yes, even $9,999.99--but it doesn't have to mean any of those.

David Ziegelheim · April 3rd, 2005, 10:34 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : I have my Dale Earnhardt flame retardant suit on. -->>>Actually, Dale Jr. was burned significantly if not seriously in a race last summer. Fire suit and all.

Questions:

1. Is there a way to record to the PC as a backup device?

2. What is the proposed mechanism for long term storage? Even a DV25 tape is huge for storage on any other media. My right foot is resting on top of a computer with 1.3 Terabytes, however that doesn't seem like nearly enough with this format.

Thanks,

David

P.S.
Conradulations on your wedding!

Chris Hurd · April 3rd, 2005, 10:47 PM

1. Better than recording to a PC as a backup device would be the ability to record directly to an edit-ready portable FireWire hard drive such as the FireStore FS-3 or FS-4. We should find out soon whether or not this is possible.

2. Among various alternatives for long-term storage are DVCPro HD cassettes, low-cost hard disks, Blu-Ray and DVD-HD options. Remember you're keeping only what you need... for everything else... there's always tape.

Aaron Koolen · April 3rd, 2005, 10:48 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley : Everyone keeps saying that since Panny said under $10k, that it must be $9,999.99...but the FX/Z1s are nowhere near that, and when the specs were first announced it was said to also be "under $10k". Under $10k can mean alot of things--the actual MSRP may not even be set yet! But most of all, it can mean $3400, $6700, or yes, even $9,999.99--but it doesn't have to mean any of those. -->>>

Kevin, you're right; we don't know. I guess the hysteria, or more rightly concern, is really to do with what we are potentially seeing as being on offer. I mean, DVCProHD, recording to P2. This is so mind blowing for anyone who is in the price range most of us sit at, that we find it hard to believe that under 10K is going to be something like $5000. Especially given the cost of P2 cards. I guess Panasonic could be giving us a P2 in the box at cost to help secure sales - but I wouldn't know what that would be - 1/4 the retail cost of about $1500 for a 4GB card? I have no idea.

I think the concerns are warranted, cause we all want one of these babies, but I really do think it will be $7k at a minimum. Which, yes is under 10K, but not the XL2, Z1 price range.

Aaron

Chris Hurd · April 3rd, 2005, 10:53 PM

<< 1/4 the retail cost of about $1500 for a 4GB card? >>

But remember $1500 is not what it costs Panasonic to bundle it with the camera. That amount is significantly lower than $1500. I don't think this camera needs to be at the XL2 or Z1 price range. I think they'll still have trouble meeting the demand for it even if it's significantly more expensive than the XL2 or Z1.

Aaron Koolen · April 3rd, 2005, 11:00 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : << 1/4 the retail cost of about $1500 for a 4GB card? >>

But remember $1500 is not what it costs Panasonic to bundle it with the camera. That amount is significantly lower than $1500. I don't think this camera needs to be at the XL2 or Z1 price range. I think they'll still have trouble meeting the demand for it even if it's significantly more expensive than the XL2 or Z1. -->>>

Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was trying to say taht the total cost of the P2 card in the package is really a lot less than retail. So hopefully it's not going to up the price too much, but I think it's still going to be higher than Z1/Xl2 and as you said, it probably doesn't have to be the same as them. Maybe it has to be below what JVC do with their new shoulder mount, interchangeable lens HDV machine, but that's it.

Aaron

Betsy Moore · April 3rd, 2005, 11:18 PM

I've never otherwise been a giant fan of the XL-1 but is there any reason why no other 4000 dollar camera offers interchangable lens mounts?

Aaron Koolen · April 3rd, 2005, 11:44 PM

That's what I've always wondered, and asked, but noone must know. Maybe they all had higher end cameras and so didn't want to appear to be moving in on that market in case they lost sales of the high ends - especially as the low end ones got better and better.

Aaron

Michael Struthers · April 3rd, 2005, 11:55 PM

The JVC looks like it's coming in at 7,700 MSRP so I'll bet the Panny is cheaper than that, since no interchangeable lenses.

6995.00 list
5995.00 street

Aaron Koolen · April 4th, 2005, 12:18 AM

Wow, that is pretty damned cheap. If you're right, then under 10K was quite a bit under. I think yeah the Panasonic will have to be cheaper to compete for sure. The HDV hype gives them an advantage already.

Aaron

David Ziegelheim · April 4th, 2005, 09:21 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : 1. Better than recording to a PC as a backup device would be the ability to record directly to an edit-ready portable FireWire hard drive such as the FireStore FS-3 or FS-4. We should find out soon whether or not this is possible.

2. Among various alternatives for long-term storage are DVCPro HD cassettes, low-cost hard disks, Blu-Ray and DVD-HD options. Remember you're keeping only what you need... for everything else... there's always tape. -->>>

Chris,

1. That should be the same.

2. DCProHD decks are very expensive. 30GB drives are still some time away and the media will probably be quite expensive. Currently the Panasonic tapes are bout $6 each for 1 hour of video. The lowest cost hard disks are more expensive and more fragile.

While the final movie is smaller, my archive includes my original footage. Isn't that standard practice?

It looks like this may be difficult, at least for a year or two.

David

Chris Hurd · April 4th, 2005, 10:07 AM

Hi David,

<< 1. That should be the same. >>

Actually a portable FireWire (or USB2) hard drive is a better deal than lugging around a PC, primarily because the drive is much smaller, attaches directly to the camera for ease of movement, can be powered from the camera, and writes an edit-ready file (no capturing required). If you meant that the video is the same, I agree with you there, but a FireStore or similar drive is much more practical than carrying an entire PC .

<< 2. DCProHD decks are very expensive. >>

Not when you rent them by the day only as you need to.

<< Currently the Panasonic tapes are bout $6 each for 1 hour of video. >>

Remember we're talking HD. DVCPro HD tapes are much more expensive; around $30 each or more.

<< my archive includes my original footage. Isn't that standard practice? >>

P2 involves a different thought process about the workflow. If you insist on keeping all of your original footage, then it may not be the right format for you. If you're inclined to keep only what's good, that's the mindset that P2 appeals to. Hope this helps,

Brad Abrahams · April 4th, 2005, 10:11 AM

Just saw this posted on dvxuser. A firewire drive enclosure that includes a rechargeable lithium-ion battery with 10+ hours of usage per charge. This would be perfect if the hvx streams the data over firewire:

http://www.macpower.com/productdetai...&catid=311,316

Bob Zimmerman · April 4th, 2005, 10:52 AM

I like to edit out bad footage and trash it,,,never to be seen again!!

Hey are we going to get some new info today from Jan?

April 3rd, 2005, 10:16 PM	#152
Kevin Dooley Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 414	Why the 9,999.99 assumption? Everyone keeps saying that since Panny said under $10k, that it must be $9,999.99...but the FX/Z1s are nowhere near that, and when the specs were first announced it was said to also be "under $10k". Under $10k can mean alot of things--the actual MSRP may not even be set yet! But most of all, it can mean $3400, $6700, or yes, even $9,999.99--but it doesn't have to mean any of those. __________________ Kevin Dooley Media Director, Pantego Bible Church

April 3rd, 2005, 10:47 PM	#154
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	1. Better than recording to a PC as a backup device would be the ability to record directly to an edit-ready portable FireWire hard drive such as the FireStore FS-3 or FS-4. We should find out soon whether or not this is possible. 2. Among various alternatives for long-term storage are DVCPro HD cassettes, low-cost hard disks, Blu-Ray and DVD-HD options. Remember you're keeping only what you need... for everything else... there's always tape. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

April 3rd, 2005, 10:48 PM	#155
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Re: Why the 9,999.99 assumption? <<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley : Everyone keeps saying that since Panny said under $10k, that it must be $9,999.99...but the FX/Z1s are nowhere near that, and when the specs were first announced it was said to also be "under $10k". Under $10k can mean alot of things--the actual MSRP may not even be set yet! But most of all, it can mean $3400, $6700, or yes, even $9,999.99--but it doesn't have to mean any of those. -->>> Kevin, you're right; we don't know. I guess the hysteria, or more rightly concern, is really to do with what we are potentially seeing as being on offer. I mean, DVCProHD, recording to P2. This is so mind blowing for anyone who is in the price range most of us sit at, that we find it hard to believe that under 10K is going to be something like $5000. Especially given the cost of P2 cards. I guess Panasonic could be giving us a P2 in the box at cost to help secure sales - but I wouldn't know what that would be - 1/4 the retail cost of about $1500 for a 4GB card? I have no idea. I think the concerns are warranted, cause we all want one of these babies, but I really do think it will be $7k at a minimum. Which, yes is under 10K, but not the XL2, Z1 price range. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

April 3rd, 2005, 10:53 PM	#156
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	<< 1/4 the retail cost of about $1500 for a 4GB card? >> But remember $1500 is not what it costs Panasonic to bundle it with the camera. That amount is significantly lower than $1500. I don't think this camera needs to be at the XL2 or Z1 price range. I think they'll still have trouble meeting the demand for it even if it's significantly more expensive than the XL2 or Z1. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

April 3rd, 2005, 11:00 PM	#157
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : << 1/4 the retail cost of about $1500 for a 4GB card? >> But remember $1500 is not what it costs Panasonic to bundle it with the camera. That amount is significantly lower than $1500. I don't think this camera needs to be at the XL2 or Z1 price range. I think they'll still have trouble meeting the demand for it even if it's significantly more expensive than the XL2 or Z1. -->>> Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was trying to say taht the total cost of the P2 card in the package is really a lot less than retail. So hopefully it's not going to up the price too much, but I think it's still going to be higher than Z1/Xl2 and as you said, it probably doesn't have to be the same as them. Maybe it has to be below what JVC do with their new shoulder mount, interchangeable lens HDV machine, but that's it. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

April 3rd, 2005, 10:13 PM	#151
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Ya guys, the panny will be awesome but let's not get ahead of ourselves. A company announcing a camera for under 10 k means it will be $9,999.99, and if you buy in state, throw in taxes to boot . . . however . . . . Does this really matter? The Panny is UN-TOUCHABLE for that price, with that codec in 1080p. Yes, the interchangeable lenses on the JVC is great, but please, HDV codec? And if you use it's uncompressed out (with the understanding that their definition of "uncompressed" is may be as sucky as the Sony Z-1 "uncompressed" out, which has a registered color space of less than 2:1:1 after transfered to computer with top end AJA cards) you'll have to get a specialized HD-SDI converter and then drag around a raid system around for footage acquistion? No dice. But Panny hit snake eyes with theirs. Awesome quality image and incredible shooting convenience to boot. I think it's possible that this camera is going to be the greatest invention for Hollywood bound indy filmmakers since . . . well, maybe EVER. If the lens is a decent one, which it probably will be, and you've got FCP HD for nearly flawless computer editing, you'll be making movies . . . I mean REAL ones, none of that first college project crap. Is this, or is this not worth 10 k?

April 3rd, 2005, 10:34 PM	#153
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : I have my Dale Earnhardt flame retardant suit on. -->>>Actually, Dale Jr. was burned significantly if not seriously in a race last summer. Fire suit and all. Questions: 1. Is there a way to record to the PC as a backup device? 2. What is the proposed mechanism for long term storage? Even a DV25 tape is huge for storage on any other media. My right foot is resting on top of a computer with 1.3 Terabytes, however that doesn't seem like nearly enough with this format. Thanks, David P.S. Conradulations on your wedding!

April 3rd, 2005, 11:18 PM	#158
Betsy Moore Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 444	I've never otherwise been a giant fan of the XL-1 but is there any reason why no other 4000 dollar camera offers interchangable lens mounts?

April 3rd, 2005, 11:44 PM	#159
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	That's what I've always wondered, and asked, but noone must know. Maybe they all had higher end cameras and so didn't want to appear to be moving in on that market in case they lost sales of the high ends - especially as the low end ones got better and better. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

April 3rd, 2005, 11:55 PM	#160
Michael Struthers Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: SF, Ca Posts: 421	The JVC looks like it's coming in at 7,700 MSRP so I'll bet the Panny is cheaper than that, since no interchangeable lenses. 6995.00 list 5995.00 street __________________ Michael Struthers www.buzzdigital.com

April 4th, 2005, 12:18 AM	#161
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Wow, that is pretty damned cheap. If you're right, then under 10K was quite a bit under. I think yeah the Panasonic will have to be cheaper to compete for sure. The HDV hype gives them an advantage already. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

April 4th, 2005, 09:21 AM	#162
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : 1. Better than recording to a PC as a backup device would be the ability to record directly to an edit-ready portable FireWire hard drive such as the FireStore FS-3 or FS-4. We should find out soon whether or not this is possible. 2. Among various alternatives for long-term storage are DVCPro HD cassettes, low-cost hard disks, Blu-Ray and DVD-HD options. Remember you're keeping only what you need... for everything else... there's always tape. -->>> Chris, 1. That should be the same. 2. DCProHD decks are very expensive. 30GB drives are still some time away and the media will probably be quite expensive. Currently the Panasonic tapes are bout $6 each for 1 hour of video. The lowest cost hard disks are more expensive and more fragile. While the final movie is smaller, my archive includes my original footage. Isn't that standard practice? It looks like this may be difficult, at least for a year or two. David

April 4th, 2005, 10:07 AM	#163
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Hi David, << 1. That should be the same. >> Actually a portable FireWire (or USB2) hard drive is a better deal than lugging around a PC, primarily because the drive is much smaller, attaches directly to the camera for ease of movement, can be powered from the camera, and writes an edit-ready file (no capturing required). If you meant that the video is the same, I agree with you there, but a FireStore or similar drive is much more practical than carrying an entire PC . << 2. DCProHD decks are very expensive. >> Not when you rent them by the day only as you need to. << Currently the Panasonic tapes are bout $6 each for 1 hour of video. >> Remember we're talking HD. DVCPro HD tapes are much more expensive; around $30 each or more. << my archive includes my original footage. Isn't that standard practice? >> P2 involves a different thought process about the workflow. If you insist on keeping all of your original footage, then it may not be the right format for you. If you're inclined to keep only what's good, that's the mindset that P2 appeals to. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

April 4th, 2005, 10:11 AM	#164
Brad Abrahams Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 65	Just saw this posted on dvxuser. A firewire drive enclosure that includes a rechargeable lithium-ion battery with 10+ hours of usage per charge. This would be perfect if the hvx streams the data over firewire: http://www.macpower.com/productdetai...&catid=311,316

April 4th, 2005, 10:52 AM	#165
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	I like to edit out bad footage and trash it,,,never to be seen again!! Hey are we going to get some new info today from Jan?