Panny P2 HD moved up? at DVinfo.net

Jesse Bekas · September 12th, 2004, 08:33 PM

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...how-Report.htm

According to Camcorderinfo, Panny announced at IBC that their HD cam will be out some time in 2005. You guys think they're trying to keep people from jumping right in with the Sony, or do you think they'll actually get it out within a year? Flash mem won't be that cheap that fast, will it?

Harrison Murchison · September 13th, 2004, 02:35 PM

Cool.

I await the death of tape in camcorders. If millions of people are carrying around hard drive based digital players then I don't see why a camcorder can't utilize a bunch of them in a RAID configuration to record DV25 and DV50 level video or with Panny Flash memory.

Anhar Miah · September 13th, 2004, 03:03 PM

It aint gonna look so cool when you see the price of the memory cards, and the amount you will need for video espeacily HD video.
It will be along time before they become affordable, megabyte for megabyte tape is till King, even if it is linear format.
i do share you view though, i would love to have disk or solid or optical based recording

Jesse Bekas · September 15th, 2004, 01:23 PM

They must have some idea of how to make flash recording afforadable. Prosumers, can't afford a ton of expensive cards. No matter how awsome the cam is, unaffordable media will keep everybody away, and I don't think Panasonic is so out of touch with its core buyers, to try to release a model like that, especially after low price/smart engineering of the GS400.

Harrison Murchison · September 15th, 2004, 03:33 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Anhar Miah : It aint gonna look so cool when you see the price of the memory cards, and the amount you will need for video espeacily HD video.
It will be along time before they become affordable, megabyte for megabyte tape is till King, even if it is linear format.
i do share you view though, i would love to have disk or solid or optical based recording -->>>

Depends on how you look at it. Tape is cheap but it's not infinitely reusable. HD/Flash storage are expensive but infinitely reusable. Workflows change when move from tape to random access media.

Wouldn't you rather grab your clips from a faster medium and then back up the digital data to something like a Blu Ray optical disck. Once my data is off the tape I have no desire to stockpile the tape that won't last that long comparitively.

I don't expect the major Japanese companies to provide us with what we all know we need even if we don't consciously realize it. They are too buy promoting their own home grown tech and that's dangerous.

Sony- wants the lineage to move from tape to Blu Ray...why? Even at 50GB Blu Ray is slower and offers less capacity than Toshiba's 1" 60GB drive available today.

Panny- wants to push Secure Digital based Flash Cards that suprise! Matsushita controls.

Filmakers need to get back to purchasing cameras aimed at recording films. The Japanese companies are interested in further their own interests first. Screw'em I just want good quality video capture and I don't give a damn about Sony's Blu Ray or Matsushita's Secure Digital IP.

Prediction- Common sense is already sweeping through non Asia countries and many other in addition to Jeff Kreines will step up with cameras and external recorders that put the "Film" back in Filmmaking. I'm ready.

Anhar Miah · September 16th, 2004, 06:10 AM

No doubt tape is dying, and HDD or solid is the way to go, but all i'm saying is that its capacity/ price has to be even or better than the current tape capacity/ price before it will become the tape replacement and YES i too cant wait for that day too come!

Jesse Bekas · September 16th, 2004, 11:53 AM

Right now it seems like HDD recording would have a better cost/storage ratio than tape considering it could be reused and written to virtually non-stop for years.

Panny seems pretty convinced, though, that they'll be able to make an affordable flash system, which I would defintely prefer over HDD. Less moving parts=more rugged, quieter, etc...

Bill Ravens · September 16th, 2004, 01:37 PM

I just finished an article that contained an interview with CBS News VP, Frank Governale. It seems that CBS news is going into a full digital shop using Sony's new XDCAM. CBS News decided against the Pany P2 because of the cost of PCMCIA cards. So, even the big guys are concerned about storage media cost. Their choice of the XDCAM was made, in part, because of the cheap cost of discs. For anyone interested, here's the story:
http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=28063

Chosei Funahara · September 16th, 2004, 01:59 PM

The new Blue Ray Laser Disk came out this year. Do you know how much each disk cost? $28-$32 that's very cheap. Amazing! Shocked!

Harrison Murchison · September 20th, 2004, 04:47 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chosei Funahara : The new Blue Ray Laser Disk came out this year. Do you know how much each disk cost? $28-$32 that's very cheap. Amazing! Shocked! -->>>

You think $1+ a GB is cheap? Perhaps for Optical technology but unless you're a huge company with large archival needs which is a fairly small and elite group.

Optical technology will never be as fast nor inexpensive as standard hard disc tech. It remains a better medium for archival storage but that it where its benefits end. The whole benefit of digital is the ability to capture data and then transport it across many devices without losing anything in the transer. Therefore It only makes sense to record digital data on the most flexible medium(hard drives) and then archiving to the best medium(optical). Backing up to optical would be fairly trivial for most people used to slow tape ingesting.

Simon Wyndham · February 18th, 2005, 01:55 PM

Actually it's very cheap for a high end storage cost compared with Digibeta tapes etc. And it's MUCH cheaper than P2!

I'm using XDCAM now. It works very nicely thanks.

Jan Crittenden Livingston · February 18th, 2005, 02:38 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham : Actually it's very cheap for a high end storage cost compared with Digibeta tapes etc. And it's MUCH cheaper than P2!

I'm using XDCAM now. It works very nicely thanks. -->>>

But you wouldn't archive on P2, you shoot with P2, you edit from P2, you archive and delive in the form factor you wish. In fact while you are editing you can tell the P2 deck, the AJ-PCD10 to play out to a tape back up. You only archive the shots worth saving, not the out of focus, bloopers, and useless stuff. Sort of solving both issues at the same time. You don't have to digitize, and log in all of the material or even have to transfer in the material. Just edit and archive at the same time.

Of course tape is not the only archive idea, there are others, like SAIT tape, or DVD-R/RAM or Terabytes of storage.

Anyhow, chiming in to say don't think of P2 as Archive, it is a method of developing a Smart Archive.

Best regards,

Jan

Simon Wyndham · February 18th, 2005, 03:32 PM

Jan, that is true. Generally speaking you wouldn't archive to XDCAM either, but the option is there.

I just get a little annoyed when people dig into XDCAm which is a superb technology.

Both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages and I believe that they can co-exist quite happily.

Jan Crittenden Livingston · February 18th, 2005, 05:54 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham : Jan, that is true. Generally speaking you wouldn't archive to XDCAM either, but the option is there.

I just get a little annoyed when people dig into XDCAm which is a superb technology.

Both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages and I believe that they can co-exist quite happily. -->>>

The problem I see is that people want to keep doing what they did before and think that that is going to get them into the benefits of tapeless acquistion. I want to record something and then save that very something on a shelf until it is time to use it and potentially reuse it.

That isn't what P2 is about. It is about Smart Archive, save that which is good, and conduct your edit while the P2 drive plays out to the archive medium, what ever that might be. And if you want to get real fancy and forward thinking you can log in meta data before you send it out to archive.

Tapeless acquisition is a paradigm shift, and how one looks at it will absolutely influence what they say. Look at the long thread over on the COW about it, some of that is very heated. Point is, you don't get to do something new until you do something new. And Tapeless acquisition is new.

Best regards,

Jan

September 12th, 2004, 08:33 PM	#1
Jesse Bekas Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ridgefield Park, New Jersey, USA Posts: 572	Panny P2 HD moved up? http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...how-Report.htm According to Camcorderinfo, Panny announced at IBC that their HD cam will be out some time in 2005. You guys think they're trying to keep people from jumping right in with the Sony, or do you think they'll actually get it out within a year? Flash mem won't be that cheap that fast, will it?

September 16th, 2004, 01:59 PM	#9
Chosei Funahara Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: N.Y.C. USA / Kobe, JAPAN / Posts: 49	XDCAM The new Blue Ray Laser Disk came out this year. Do you know how much each disk cost? $28-$32 that's very cheap. Amazing! Shocked!

September 20th, 2004, 04:47 PM	#10
Harrison Murchison Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 243	Re: XDCAM <<<-- Originally posted by Chosei Funahara : The new Blue Ray Laser Disk came out this year. Do you know how much each disk cost? $28-$32 that's very cheap. Amazing! Shocked! -->>> You think $1+ a GB is cheap? Perhaps for Optical technology but unless you're a huge company with large archival needs which is a fairly small and elite group. Optical technology will never be as fast nor inexpensive as standard hard disc tech. It remains a better medium for archival storage but that it where its benefits end. The whole benefit of digital is the ability to capture data and then transport it across many devices without losing anything in the transer. Therefore It only makes sense to record digital data on the most flexible medium(hard drives) and then archiving to the best medium(optical). Backing up to optical would be fairly trivial for most people used to slow tape ingesting.

September 13th, 2004, 02:35 PM	#2
Harrison Murchison Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 243	Cool. I await the death of tape in camcorders. If millions of people are carrying around hard drive based digital players then I don't see why a camcorder can't utilize a bunch of them in a RAID configuration to record DV25 and DV50 level video or with Panny Flash memory.

September 13th, 2004, 03:03 PM	#3
Anhar Miah Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United Kindom, England Posts: 290	It aint gonna look so cool when you see the price of the memory cards, and the amount you will need for video espeacily HD video. It will be along time before they become affordable, megabyte for megabyte tape is till King, even if it is linear format. i do share you view though, i would love to have disk or solid or optical based recording

September 15th, 2004, 01:23 PM	#4
Jesse Bekas Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ridgefield Park, New Jersey, USA Posts: 572	They must have some idea of how to make flash recording afforadable. Prosumers, can't afford a ton of expensive cards. No matter how awsome the cam is, unaffordable media will keep everybody away, and I don't think Panasonic is so out of touch with its core buyers, to try to release a model like that, especially after low price/smart engineering of the GS400.

September 15th, 2004, 03:33 PM	#5
Harrison Murchison Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 243	<<<-- Originally posted by Anhar Miah : It aint gonna look so cool when you see the price of the memory cards, and the amount you will need for video espeacily HD video. It will be along time before they become affordable, megabyte for megabyte tape is till King, even if it is linear format. i do share you view though, i would love to have disk or solid or optical based recording -->>> Depends on how you look at it. Tape is cheap but it's not infinitely reusable. HD/Flash storage are expensive but infinitely reusable. Workflows change when move from tape to random access media. Wouldn't you rather grab your clips from a faster medium and then back up the digital data to something like a Blu Ray optical disck. Once my data is off the tape I have no desire to stockpile the tape that won't last that long comparitively. I don't expect the major Japanese companies to provide us with what we all know we need even if we don't consciously realize it. They are too buy promoting their own home grown tech and that's dangerous. Sony- wants the lineage to move from tape to Blu Ray...why? Even at 50GB Blu Ray is slower and offers less capacity than Toshiba's 1" 60GB drive available today. Panny- wants to push Secure Digital based Flash Cards that suprise! Matsushita controls. Filmakers need to get back to purchasing cameras aimed at recording films. The Japanese companies are interested in further their own interests first. Screw'em I just want good quality video capture and I don't give a damn about Sony's Blu Ray or Matsushita's Secure Digital IP. Prediction- Common sense is already sweeping through non Asia countries and many other in addition to Jeff Kreines will step up with cameras and external recorders that put the "Film" back in Filmmaking. I'm ready.

September 16th, 2004, 06:10 AM	#6
Anhar Miah Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United Kindom, England Posts: 290	No doubt tape is dying, and HDD or solid is the way to go, but all i'm saying is that its capacity/ price has to be even or better than the current tape capacity/ price before it will become the tape replacement and YES i too cant wait for that day too come!

September 16th, 2004, 11:53 AM	#7
Jesse Bekas Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ridgefield Park, New Jersey, USA Posts: 572	Right now it seems like HDD recording would have a better cost/storage ratio than tape considering it could be reused and written to virtually non-stop for years. Panny seems pretty convinced, though, that they'll be able to make an affordable flash system, which I would defintely prefer over HDD. Less moving parts=more rugged, quieter, etc...

September 16th, 2004, 01:37 PM	#8
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I just finished an article that contained an interview with CBS News VP, Frank Governale. It seems that CBS news is going into a full digital shop using Sony's new XDCAM. CBS News decided against the Pany P2 because of the cost of PCMCIA cards. So, even the big guys are concerned about storage media cost. Their choice of the XDCAM was made, in part, because of the cheap cost of discs. For anyone interested, here's the story: http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=28063

February 18th, 2005, 01:55 PM	#11
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Actually it's very cheap for a high end storage cost compared with Digibeta tapes etc. And it's MUCH cheaper than P2! I'm using XDCAM now. It works very nicely thanks.

February 18th, 2005, 02:38 PM	#12
Jan Crittenden Livingston Panasonic Broadcast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Secaucus, NJ 07094 Posts: 271	<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham : Actually it's very cheap for a high end storage cost compared with Digibeta tapes etc. And it's MUCH cheaper than P2! I'm using XDCAM now. It works very nicely thanks. -->>> But you wouldn't archive on P2, you shoot with P2, you edit from P2, you archive and delive in the form factor you wish. In fact while you are editing you can tell the P2 deck, the AJ-PCD10 to play out to a tape back up. You only archive the shots worth saving, not the out of focus, bloopers, and useless stuff. Sort of solving both issues at the same time. You don't have to digitize, and log in all of the material or even have to transfer in the material. Just edit and archive at the same time. Of course tape is not the only archive idea, there are others, like SAIT tape, or DVD-R/RAM or Terabytes of storage. Anyhow, chiming in to say don't think of P2 as Archive, it is a method of developing a Smart Archive. Best regards, Jan

February 18th, 2005, 03:32 PM	#13
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Jan, that is true. Generally speaking you wouldn't archive to XDCAM either, but the option is there. I just get a little annoyed when people dig into XDCAm which is a superb technology. Both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages and I believe that they can co-exist quite happily.

February 18th, 2005, 05:54 PM	#14
Jan Crittenden Livingston Panasonic Broadcast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Secaucus, NJ 07094 Posts: 271	<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham : Jan, that is true. Generally speaking you wouldn't archive to XDCAM either, but the option is there. I just get a little annoyed when people dig into XDCAm which is a superb technology. Both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages and I believe that they can co-exist quite happily. -->>> The problem I see is that people want to keep doing what they did before and think that that is going to get them into the benefits of tapeless acquistion. I want to record something and then save that very something on a shelf until it is time to use it and potentially reuse it. That isn't what P2 is about. It is about Smart Archive, save that which is good, and conduct your edit while the P2 drive plays out to the archive medium, what ever that might be. And if you want to get real fancy and forward thinking you can log in meta data before you send it out to archive. Tapeless acquisition is a paradigm shift, and how one looks at it will absolutely influence what they say. Look at the long thread over on the COW about it, some of that is very heated. Point is, you don't get to do something new until you do something new. And Tapeless acquisition is new. Best regards, Jan