New Panasonic coming out (replace HPX-170)

[John Sconiers]

I'm finally in a position to purchase an HPX-170. I went to go look at one at a camera store and the salesman mentioned there may be a new replacement for the 170 coming out within the next two months. Has anyone heard of a new camera being released?

[Christopher Drews]

Not sure how this guy could have a window into the soul of Panasonic. Probably wants you to buy a more expensive camera (like the 300). I can't believe the 170 is only going for 4k w/ rebate.
-C

[Barry Green]

A replacement for the 170? Haven't heard anything even remotely like that. The 170's only been on the market for less than a year; I think the first ones arrived in September or October 2008.

In comparison, the HVX200 was on the market for about three years before the HPX170 showed up (and, the HVX200A is still available).

So it seems quite unlikely that the HPX170 would be replaced any time soon.

[Kevin Railsback]

New models will always come out. Don't let that deter you.

I know a guy that wanted to buy a computer back when they pretty much only had IBM AT and XT's. He heard that the OS called "Windows" would be replacing DOS. So he waited. Then they came out with Windows and faster computers. So he waited cause faster ones would come out and they would improve windows. When they came out with faster models there were always going to be faster ones coming so he waited.

This went on for like ten years. He finally bought a Mac a couple years ago but missed out on a decade of computer use and knowledge.

Buy what is here today, you can alway buy newer models down the road.

A 170 in the hand is worth two in the bush.

[David Heath]

Unless you're desperate for a new camera now, it may be worth waiting until IBC, which is only a few weeks away now. I take the points about never buying anything due to always waiting for something better, but it's not good either to buy something just before it becomes yesterdays news.

Is a replacement likely? I wouldn't rule it out, though I wonder if the salesman may have been thinking about the 300. Fact is, the 300 has redefined Panasonics market - full res 1920x1080 chips, and full raster recording with AVC-Intra 100 - against that 960x540 chips and DVCProHD look very second best. Equally, Panasonics HMC150 offers most of what the 170 does much cheaper - you have to think not just of the basic camera cost, but the full package cost with memory, and a 170 with a decent recording time will cost a lot more than 4k!

By the time you take the cost of P2 cards into account, the 170 costs getting on for what an EX or a JVC HM700 costs, and for that money I'd take either of them any day.

[Christian Magnussen]

Originally Posted by David Heath

Fact is, the 300 has redefined Panasonics market - full res 1920x1080 chips, and full raster recording with AVC-Intra 100 - against that 960x540 chips and DVCProHD look very second best. Equally, Panasonics HMC150 offers most of what the 170 does much cheaper - you have to think not just of the basic camera cost, but the full package cost with memory, and a 170 with a decent recording time will cost a lot more than 4k!

By the time you take the cost of P2 cards into account, the 170 costs getting on for what an EX or a JVC HM700 costs, and for that money I'd take either of them any day.

Redefined the lower end of the market, yes. But as always it comes with compromises, CMOS and 1/3" sensor.

To a certain extent that hmc150 offer the same as the 170. But the 170 has less compression and are 4:2:2 oppsed to the nightmare of avchd which is 4:2:0. While P2 are way more expensive than SD cards they are more durable, faster and if the 170 se the role of b-roll it's practical for a production to have one type of media for all cameras. The cost of P2 with the new cards shouldn't be an issue for pro use either with the lower card prices.

If there where an upgrade to the Hpx170 i would think of better LCD screen, and overall improvement, it's still one of the best hd cameras in it's size/class.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Christian Magnussen

But as always it comes with compromises, CMOS and 1/3" sensor.

Well - the 171 is 1/3" sensor as well, and my own opinion is that the CMOS is far less of a compromise than 960x540 chips. It allows the camera to have full resolution and better sensitivity, and I also regard the AVC-Intra codec as much less of a compromise than DVCProHD.

If a "181" did get announced at IBC, with CMOS 1920x1080 chips and AVC-Intra, which do you think would sell best - that or the 171?

...... it's still one of the best hd cameras in it's size/class.

I really cannot agree. Panasonics 151 or 300, Sonys EX, and JVCs HM700 all offer much better value for money IMO. The 151 may not be quite as good, but is vastly cheaper when you take memory costs into consideration, and the 171 is simply outperformed all round by the EX and HM700 which cost a similar amount. (Again, taking memory costs into consideration.)

I don't deny there may be a niche for the 171, but with most new pro 2/3" Panasonic cameras going quickly down the AVC-Intra and full 1920x1080 route, that b-camera role is going to be increasingly more easily filled by something like the "181" I proposed. (With DVCProHD backwards compatability.) Whether such will be announced at IBC is anyones guess, but if you can wait another couple of weeks, something like that makes a lot of sense.

[Barry Green]

David, we get it -- you hate the P2 cost, and you hate the chips. You think the HMC150 offers a better value -- and for some, that's true, but you're discounting the reliability of P2, the established workflow, the ability to edit 12 streams of HD directly off the card, the 170's variable frame rates, the standard-def DV and DVCPRO50 recording, the HD-SDI port, the time lapse recording, loop recording, extremely long shutter speeds for light streaks, the five year warranty, the upgradeability to PAL/NTSC switchability... the 170 offers a lot over the 150 and there are lots of reasons that NBC and ABC and Fox chose it over alternatives from Sony and JVC.

Moving on.

Perhaps what the salesman was thinking of was the HMC40? That's due within about a month, it's 1/4" CMOS 1920x1080 chips, it's AVCHD.

[Mark Williams]

Moving from tape to the HPX170 with P2 card has been the best decision I have made in a while and I am a penny pincher. Love the workflow and speed with Edius 5. Would using the HMC150 with SD card have been cheaper...sure it would....but it is not as versatile. When I fill up the card in the field I offload to a hard drive. I am sure something better will come along but for now it is just fine by me.

[Barry Green]

For hard drive offloading, it seems like a decent time to point out that Nexto has come out with a sort of mega-P2-store device. The Nexto NVS2500 is a multi-format hard disk offloading device, with a 250gb or 500gb hard disk, or the option of a 128gb solid-state SSD drive. It has ports on it for compactflash, SD/SDHC, and SxS/Expresscard, and it includes an adapter for P2->ExpressCard, so you can directly offload SxS or P2 cards to it. It even has an LCD screen and can play back your footage.

Not inexpensive, I think the 250GB drive version goes for around $1850, the 500GB drive version is around $2k, and the SSD version is around $2500. But it's another option for those wanting a P2-store type of device, especially because it supports multiple card formats.

[Jan Crittenden Livingston]

Originally Posted by John Sconiers

I'm finally in a position to purchase an HPX-170. I went to go look at one at a camera store and the salesman mentioned there may be a new replacement for the 170 coming out within the next two months. Has anyone heard of a new camera being released?

Hi, I am the product manager for the HPX170 and there is no new 170 on the horizon for a long time to come.

Best,

Jan

[Jan Crittenden Livingston]

Originally Posted by David Heath

Equally, Panasonics HMC150 offers most of what the 170 does much cheaper - you have to think not just of the basic camera cost, but the full package cost with memory, and a 170 with a decent recording time will cost a lot more than 4k!

The HMC150 is a very nice camera and in the AVCHD class is the best camera out there and its compression engine is up to comparson with the HDV and XDCAM EX algorithm. If however you are aiming a little higher the HPX170 can take you there with a 4:2:2, professional I frame only codec. The cost of memory is a one time shot and if you were to try and archive those it would be expensive, but that isn't how the workflow works. You can actually lease the cards as they do have serial numbers and so if you have leased your camera as well, it could change they way you do business.

Best,

Jan

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Barry Green

David, we get it -- you hate the P2 cost, and you hate the chips.

Well, "hate" is an emotive word, and I wouldn't say I could ever feel such a strong emotion towards bits of electronic circuitry!

What I was trying to get over is that camera costs (and value for money) should be calculated thinking of the total system cost (camera plus memory), not just the straightforward camera body cost. That's all. Hence, two/three hours of P2 recording only adds a small fraction to the cost of a high end P2 camera like a 3000, but virtually doubles the basic cost of the 171.

I accept that extra cards may be leased as desired, but I'd expect most owners would like to have a basic amount of their own?

Similarly for the chips. No, I don't "hate" or feel any other deep emotion to them, they are what they are, and give the result they do. But as 1920x1080 display screens become more common, if not commonplace, and as more and more cameras in this price category get 1920x1080 chips, I just feel 960x540 look more and more like yesterdays technology. That even seems underlined when you say:

Perhaps what the salesman was thinking of was the HMC40? That's due within about a month, it's 1/4" CMOS 1920x1080 chips, it's AVCHD.

Panasonics HPX301 has 1920x1080 chips, so does the Sony EX, now it's being extended into Panasonics AVC-HD range.

But Jans answer effectively seals the speculation - no new 170 on the horizon. I suspect many will be disappointed by the news, I doubt I'm the only one who would have seen a new product in this price category with full raster chips and AVC-Intra recording as a very good thing. A much better B camera to the higher end P2 cameras.

[Daniel Epstein]

Originally Posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston

Hi, I am the product manager for the HPX170 and there is no new 170 on the horizon for a long time to come.

Best,

Jan

Hey Jan,
I like this response.

[Zach Love]

Originally Posted by David Heath

Fact is, the 300 has redefined Panasonics market ... you have to think not just of the basic camera cost, but the full package cost with memory

I think the 300 is in a price point galaxy far far away from a 150, 170, 200a, or EX1.

The 300 is at a great price point for less than $8k w/ rebates. But how many people have priced out the entire camera package?

P2 cards, tripod, tripod head, batteries & charger will cost more than a 150, 170, 200a or EX1.

Depending on how many P2 cards (even the E series) & batteries you purchase for a 300, you could easily spend enough money to purchase 2 smaller cameras.

Now if you already have a Betacam & HVX, then you might be able to skip the accessories & then the HPX300 is super cheap for what you get when you don't have to purchase the add-ons.