Flash Band Compensation (FBC) firmware update. at DVinfo.net

Max Allen · July 5th, 2009, 05:48 PM

Did you guys see this? On the HPX300, Panasonic's first CMOS camera. She demonstrates the camera flash problem only. I'd like to know if it addresses the motion artifacting with vertical lines also. Forward to remaining time 5:00 minutes in the video. If this solves both then Sony should pay attention.

http://www.freshdv.com/2009/04/nab-2...ic-hpx300.html

Ned Soltz · July 5th, 2009, 09:01 PM

The Flash Band Compensation (FBC) firmware update for the HPX addresses flash issues in rolling shutter by essentially interpolating info to fill-out the entire frame. I've written about this in a forthcoming article on the HPX (don't know when it will be out in print and then on the web).

Ned

Chris Hurd · July 5th, 2009, 09:11 PM

At NAB this year I was given a personal demo of how this process works. It's amazing, and it wasn't shown previously in New York during their pre-NAB press conference in February because it wasn't ready yet. It's definitely ready now, though, and it works great.

Barry J. Anwender · July 5th, 2009, 09:26 PM

FreshDV has an NAB 2009 video on the Pani HPX300 which explains and shows how this new firmware works. It does indeed seem very effective. There are other announcements in the video that Sony could also learn from, but that is another story.

Tim Polster · July 5th, 2009, 09:59 PM

So when will the EX series be getting an update :)

Dean Harrington · July 5th, 2009, 10:14 PM

This firmware is a great solution and just goes to show you that while panasonic may be slow on delivering cameras with the right stuff ... they do solve problems that need solving! My 2 Cents ... the 300 is obvious what the 200 should have been. The 300 should have been a 1/2 censor CMOS at the very least. If Panasonic had made this a 1/2 chip censor ... I would have sold my EX3 and bought Panasonic without too much thought. Now, I have several Panasonic and Sony cameras which are great cameras. I certainly do wish sony paid more attention to it's customers needs. Panasonic is way ahead on that level.

Chris Hurd · July 5th, 2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Polster

So when will the EX series be getting an update :)

I have no idea why this thread was posted to the XDCAM EX forum. I've now moved it to P2 HD where it belongs.

Max Allen · July 6th, 2009, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

I have no idea why this thread was posted to the XDCAM EX forum. I've now moved it to P2 HD where it belongs.

I think because EX being being the first pro CMOS camera in its class the rolling shutter mantra specifically for EX users became that it's inherent to CMOS and a tradeoff you must live with, along with justification that since the RED has it then that must be true. Because if it can be cured surely the RED makers would have done it.

EX users had convinced themselves, me included, that there was no cure for this because it is hardware not software. And if Panasonic is able to do this then maybe Sony should look into as well. So there you go that's why I posted it in EX forum. :-) My 2cents it may benefit users to move it back because if this proves to be a good thing we would would like to have it for EX!

Daniel Epstein · July 7th, 2009, 05:14 PM

The heading on this thread is misleading. The flash band compensation FBC firmware solution is not a solution to all CMOS issues and may not be the complete solution to flash issues either. It certainly looked good on the demo which was on a picture with no motion if I remember correctly. Lets see what it really looks like on motion with uncontrolled flashes. It can be turned on and off so I wonder if it adds any other artifacts when it is not expected too. Look at other threads about the lack of solution to other CMOS issues related to rolling shutter issues.

Dan Brockett · July 7th, 2009, 08:07 PM

I agree with Daniel. The title of the thread should mention FBC, not "solved CMOS rolling shutter"...

The way it reads now doesn't make sense based upon the information contained in the thread. Yes, it is semantics but Chris doesn't normally let misleading thread titles through.

Dan

Chris Hurd · July 8th, 2009, 01:24 AM

Point well taken. Thread title changed from "Panasonic says they've solved CMOS rolling shutter with simple firmware upgrade" to "Flash Band Compensation (FBC) firmware update." Thanks for the suggestion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Allen

...that's why I posted it in EX forum... My 2cents it may benefit users to move it back...

I appreciate your input, but the thread belongs here since FBC is a Panasonic process intended for Panasonic cameras. Awhile back I left an announcement in the EX forum urging folks to please use the *entire* site, so as not to miss other topics of interest such as this one.

Max Allen · July 8th, 2009, 12:01 PM

Good point on thread title guys. I haven't come across that term before "Flash Band Compensation". If that's what they're calling it I guess I didn't catch it. Thanks for modifying the title.

I agree the NAB demo video is limited in scope. I mentioned in the first post a curiosity about how much, if at all, this compensation effects the other rolling shutter issues. She doesn't say either way in the video I don't think, so until real world applications I think conclusions may be premature. Does the cause behind the flash issue not have any similarities in common with the other effects of rolling shutter?

Barry Green · July 10th, 2009, 02:11 PM

Flash Band Compensation only fixes flash instances. It has no effect on any other rolling shutter characteristic, artifact, or effect.

July 5th, 2009, 05:48 PM	#1
Max Allen Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NY Posts: 186	Flash Band Compensation (FBC) firmware update. Did you guys see this? On the HPX300, Panasonic's first CMOS camera. She demonstrates the camera flash problem only. I'd like to know if it addresses the motion artifacting with vertical lines also. Forward to remaining time 5:00 minutes in the video. If this solves both then Sony should pay attention. http://www.freshdv.com/2009/04/nab-2...ic-hpx300.html

July 5th, 2009, 09:11 PM	#3
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	At NAB this year I was given a personal demo of how this process works. It's amazing, and it wasn't shown previously in New York during their pre-NAB press conference in February because it wasn't ready yet. It's definitely ready now, though, and it works great. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 5th, 2009, 10:14 PM	#6
Dean Harrington Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tokyo Posts: 898	cmos ... This firmware is a great solution and just goes to show you that while panasonic may be slow on delivering cameras with the right stuff ... they do solve problems that need solving! My 2 Cents ... the 300 is obvious what the 200 should have been. The 300 should have been a 1/2 censor CMOS at the very least. If Panasonic had made this a 1/2 chip censor ... I would have sold my EX3 and bought Panasonic without too much thought. Now, I have several Panasonic and Sony cameras which are great cameras. I certainly do wish sony paid more attention to it's customers needs. Panasonic is way ahead on that level.

July 5th, 2009, 09:01 PM	#2
Ned Soltz Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Teaneck, NJ Posts: 659	The Flash Band Compensation (FBC) firmware update for the HPX addresses flash issues in rolling shutter by essentially interpolating info to fill-out the entire frame. I've written about this in a forthcoming article on the HPX (don't know when it will be out in print and then on the web). Ned

July 5th, 2009, 09:26 PM	#4
Barry J. Anwender Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada Posts: 382	FreshDV has an NAB 2009 video on the Pani HPX300 which explains and shows how this new firmware works. It does indeed seem very effective. There are other announcements in the video that Sony could also learn from, but that is another story.

July 5th, 2009, 09:59 PM	#5
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	So when will the EX series be getting an update :)

July 7th, 2009, 05:14 PM	#9
Daniel Epstein Trustee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,267	The heading on this thread is misleading. The flash band compensation FBC firmware solution is not a solution to all CMOS issues and may not be the complete solution to flash issues either. It certainly looked good on the demo which was on a picture with no motion if I remember correctly. Lets see what it really looks like on motion with uncontrolled flashes. It can be turned on and off so I wonder if it adds any other artifacts when it is not expected too. Look at other threads about the lack of solution to other CMOS issues related to rolling shutter issues.

July 7th, 2009, 08:07 PM	#10
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	I agree with Daniel. The title of the thread should mention FBC, not "solved CMOS rolling shutter"... The way it reads now doesn't make sense based upon the information contained in the thread. Yes, it is semantics but Chris doesn't normally let misleading thread titles through. Dan

July 8th, 2009, 12:01 PM	#12
Max Allen Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NY Posts: 186	Good point on thread title guys. I haven't come across that term before "Flash Band Compensation". If that's what they're calling it I guess I didn't catch it. Thanks for modifying the title. I agree the NAB demo video is limited in scope. I mentioned in the first post a curiosity about how much, if at all, this compensation effects the other rolling shutter issues. She doesn't say either way in the video I don't think, so until real world applications I think conclusions may be premature. Does the cause behind the flash issue not have any similarities in common with the other effects of rolling shutter?

July 10th, 2009, 02:11 PM	#13
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Flash Band Compensation only fixes flash instances. It has no effect on any other rolling shutter characteristic, artifact, or effect.