Shoot for digital cinema and tv with HVX200 at DVinfo.net

Heiko Saele · January 16th, 2008, 02:42 PM

I'm going to shoot a commercial for sd tv and digital cinema projection in two weeks and I'm not sure what format to shoot in.
Is 1080 a lot better than 720 on the HVX? From what I know the HVX is perfect for 720 and doesn't profit much from 1080. I'm not sure how many P2 cards I will be having, in the worst case it's only two 8GB cards, in the best case it could be two 8GB and four 16GB. If I can have all of the cards I will shoot 1080 for sure, but with only two 8GB cards I'd rather use 720 because I'm not sure there will be a notebook available to download the clips from the card. This sounds silly, I know, but that's the way it is (I have to use what is available, not even spending 50 Euro is an option, it's crazy... I only say that because I'm sure nobody else there reads english forums... if somebody does, fire me! :) )

The next thing I'm asking is, should I shoot progressive or interlaced? I have to say I am not much of a fan of 24/25 progressive digital. I shot a short recently in 720/25p, but it was very static, almost no camera movement, and I opened the shutter to 200°. I liked the look of that, but the commercial will be with a lot of motion, the director said it should be "24-like" (we are both avid 24 fans). I always think digital progressive stutters a lot more than real film. I don't have an explanation for it, but when I watch movies/shows shot on film, they always look super smooth, but 24/25p digital always stutters a lot. That's why I think I will be using 1080i for the shoot. Or maybe 720/50p? Damn, so many options...

One last thing I'm not sure about: scene file settings. The director said he wanted to have something that leaves everything open to post production. I was thinking I either use Cine Gamma or normal HD gamma (we have to work that out), and then make it as flat as possible. What would be a good setting for a very flat picture, one that leaves everything to post? I was thinking about scene file 6 (cine gamma d) and sharpness -2. Any better ideas?

Well, I know I am pretty biased on these questions already, but I'm happy to get any input on this. Please post your opinion on these matters, I like to hear any of it!

Sergio Perez · January 17th, 2008, 09:30 PM

Shoot 1080 25p, if you have digital cinema in mind.

Most people think that the motion rendering of 25p is stuttery, but must of the annoying stuttering happens because of bad camera configuration, like slow shutter speed, OIS ON (optical image stabilization), etc.

Cinema looks goods and smooth on Cinemas because the projectors aren't actually projecting 25p "as is" they normally smooth the picture by frame doubling to 50/48 (Like some home projectors do with their "cinema" modes ).

If you shoot 1080p you have more resolution. Just make sure that, on editing, you select "No Fields"on your sequence settings.

TingSern Wong · January 18th, 2008, 08:25 PM

Sergio,
HVX200 can go 1080p? Where did you get that from?

Joe Lawry · January 18th, 2008, 09:21 PM

1080p in a 50/60i stream. just like the dvx does 24/25p in sd.

TingSern Wong · January 18th, 2008, 09:36 PM

Are we talking about in post or in camera here? As far as I know, HVX200 only shoots 1080i - not 1080p.

Sergio Perez · January 19th, 2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TingSern Wong

Sergio,
HVX200 can go 1080p? Where did you get that from?

TingSern, remember that thread where I explained how 1080p works with the HVX?

It should still be here somewhere...Ah, here it is:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...=110768&page=2

The HVX shoots 1080p.

To shoot 1080p25 go to recording setup on the HVX menu and select 1080 25p, and you're ready to go. In FInal Cut pro, select 108050i preset, then go to sequence settings and on " FIelds" option select " No Fields" . There you go. 1080p Editing. Make sure when you output the file, on quicktime settings or compressor, to select also no fields, or "25fps", if you go H264!

TingSern Wong · January 20th, 2008, 01:02 AM

Sergio,

Thanks for reminding me about that. Somehow, I keep forgetting that HVX202 does 720p and 1080p as well.

Chris Nuzzaco · January 23rd, 2008, 10:40 AM

For good post settings, I'd recommend just keeping everything set to zero in the menus. I can't remember what the different knee and gamma settings are however, but ideally what you want is a nice wide dynamic range image. It will look milky. Keep in mind that you will add contrast later, so I suggest you figure out what the ultimate look of the piece will be from a contrast point of view, and light for it. You'll probably only have about 4 stops to work with, it all depends how contrasty you make the image.

Heiko Saele · February 14th, 2008, 04:37 PM

The shoot is done - thanks for all your answers! I decided to go for 1080/25p (it really looked very smooth in our tests).

If you're interested, you can take a look at it
http://www.vimeo.com/692554
(doesn't look nearly as good as the original - I think I have seen better vimeo encodes as well)

It's in German, but you really don't need to understand the few words they're saying to get the point.

The audio mastering is not quite done, also the audio volume seems to be fluctuating towards the end (happened in the exporting process, the editor has not yet figured out why).

Remind you it's a very low budget spot for regional tv and movie theatres - that given, I think it is pretty crazy (at least compared to what our customers usually want...)
It was shot in 4 hours with a crew of two (me and the writer/director). The two actors are actually colleagues who are usually behind the camera/editing suite.

Outdoors and in the car we used no lighting whatsoever but we removed the roof of the car which really saved my day... interestingly this doesn't even draw too much attention - although you can clearly see it.
Indoors lighting was two open faced 1kW PAR on normal stands and one styrofoam reflector (plus practical lights).

The audio was recorded guerilla-style with one Sennheiser MD 46 directly connected to the camera...

It's edited in Final Cut Pro Studio, graded with Apple Color.

I think it turned out pretty cool given our limited timeframe and equipment - and it was a lot of fun to shoot! :)

Mark Williams · February 14th, 2008, 04:58 PM

Uh. Don't much care to go to view your file where it advertises to upload free porn.

Heiko Saele · February 14th, 2008, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Williams

Uh. Don't much care to go to view your file where it advertises to upload free porn.

*EDIT* changed the link to vimeo. I cut of the end with the logo, so vimeo won't ban me for posting commercials.

January 16th, 2008, 02:42 PM	#1
Heiko Saele Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Wurzburg, Germany Posts: 316	Shoot for digital cinema and tv with HVX200 I'm going to shoot a commercial for sd tv and digital cinema projection in two weeks and I'm not sure what format to shoot in. Is 1080 a lot better than 720 on the HVX? From what I know the HVX is perfect for 720 and doesn't profit much from 1080. I'm not sure how many P2 cards I will be having, in the worst case it's only two 8GB cards, in the best case it could be two 8GB and four 16GB. If I can have all of the cards I will shoot 1080 for sure, but with only two 8GB cards I'd rather use 720 because I'm not sure there will be a notebook available to download the clips from the card. This sounds silly, I know, but that's the way it is (I have to use what is available, not even spending 50 Euro is an option, it's crazy... I only say that because I'm sure nobody else there reads english forums... if somebody does, fire me! :) ) The next thing I'm asking is, should I shoot progressive or interlaced? I have to say I am not much of a fan of 24/25 progressive digital. I shot a short recently in 720/25p, but it was very static, almost no camera movement, and I opened the shutter to 200°. I liked the look of that, but the commercial will be with a lot of motion, the director said it should be "24-like" (we are both avid 24 fans). I always think digital progressive stutters a lot more than real film. I don't have an explanation for it, but when I watch movies/shows shot on film, they always look super smooth, but 24/25p digital always stutters a lot. That's why I think I will be using 1080i for the shoot. Or maybe 720/50p? Damn, so many options... One last thing I'm not sure about: scene file settings. The director said he wanted to have something that leaves everything open to post production. I was thinking I either use Cine Gamma or normal HD gamma (we have to work that out), and then make it as flat as possible. What would be a good setting for a very flat picture, one that leaves everything to post? I was thinking about scene file 6 (cine gamma d) and sharpness -2. Any better ideas? Well, I know I am pretty biased on these questions already, but I'm happy to get any input on this. Please post your opinion on these matters, I like to hear any of it!

January 17th, 2008, 09:30 PM	#2
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	Shoot 1080 25p, if you have digital cinema in mind. Most people think that the motion rendering of 25p is stuttery, but must of the annoying stuttering happens because of bad camera configuration, like slow shutter speed, OIS ON (optical image stabilization), etc. Cinema looks goods and smooth on Cinemas because the projectors aren't actually projecting 25p "as is" they normally smooth the picture by frame doubling to 50/48 (Like some home projectors do with their "cinema" modes ). If you shoot 1080p you have more resolution. Just make sure that, on editing, you select "No Fields"on your sequence settings. __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will.

February 14th, 2008, 04:37 PM	#9
Heiko Saele Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Wurzburg, Germany Posts: 316	The shoot is done - thanks for all your answers! I decided to go for 1080/25p (it really looked very smooth in our tests). If you're interested, you can take a look at it http://www.vimeo.com/692554 (doesn't look nearly as good as the original - I think I have seen better vimeo encodes as well) It's in German, but you really don't need to understand the few words they're saying to get the point. The audio mastering is not quite done, also the audio volume seems to be fluctuating towards the end (happened in the exporting process, the editor has not yet figured out why). Remind you it's a very low budget spot for regional tv and movie theatres - that given, I think it is pretty crazy (at least compared to what our customers usually want...) It was shot in 4 hours with a crew of two (me and the writer/director). The two actors are actually colleagues who are usually behind the camera/editing suite. Outdoors and in the car we used no lighting whatsoever but we removed the roof of the car which really saved my day... interestingly this doesn't even draw too much attention - although you can clearly see it. Indoors lighting was two open faced 1kW PAR on normal stands and one styrofoam reflector (plus practical lights). The audio was recorded guerilla-style with one Sennheiser MD 46 directly connected to the camera... It's edited in Final Cut Pro Studio, graded with Apple Color. I think it turned out pretty cool given our limited timeframe and equipment - and it was a lot of fun to shoot! :) Last edited by Heiko Saele; February 15th, 2008 at 11:47 AM.

February 14th, 2008, 04:58 PM	#10
Mark Williams Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Deep South, U.S. Posts: 1,526	Uh. Don't much care to go to view your file where it advertises to upload free porn. __________________ Mark videos: http://vimeo.com/channels/3523 Stock: http://www.pond5.com/artist/mark29

January 18th, 2008, 08:25 PM	#3
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Sergio, HVX200 can go 1080p? Where did you get that from?

January 18th, 2008, 09:21 PM	#4
Joe Lawry Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 418	1080p in a 50/60i stream. just like the dvx does 24/25p in sd.

January 18th, 2008, 09:36 PM	#5
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Are we talking about in post or in camera here? As far as I know, HVX200 only shoots 1080i - not 1080p.

January 20th, 2008, 01:02 AM	#7
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Sergio, Thanks for reminding me about that. Somehow, I keep forgetting that HVX202 does 720p and 1080p as well.

January 23rd, 2008, 10:40 AM	#8
Chris Nuzzaco New Boot Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 8	For good post settings, I'd recommend just keeping everything set to zero in the menus. I can't remember what the different knee and gamma settings are however, but ideally what you want is a nice wide dynamic range image. It will look milky. Keep in mind that you will add contrast later, so I suggest you figure out what the ultimate look of the piece will be from a contrast point of view, and light for it. You'll probably only have about 4 stops to work with, it all depends how contrasty you make the image.