A new HVX200 with AVC Intra, possible?

[Mike Bisom]

Hello,

Relatively new to this site and I did a search which came up with nothing. I saw the wish list thread but I guess my question is couldn't Panasonic update the HVX200 to use the AVC Intra codec? I mean if they did nothing else to the camera but that I would buy that over the new Sony (I don't like MPEG). Of course HD chips along with better low light would be great but I don't see where they can't just make the camera compatible with the intra codec at relatively no cost? Is there any reason to suspect that the next generation of the HVX200 wouldn't use the AVC-Intra codec?

Mike

[Kaku Ito]

Maybe they get rid of the tape transport then they have the space but the problem would be the price.

Now we can guess that the new consumer SD9 has AVCHD with 24p, so they probably will have prosumer model with AVCHD 24p and the cam is going to look like HVX ( I saw the mockup at InterBEE). If that cam is going to be around, say less than 3K, covering prosumer with that cam, then Panasonic could come out with new HVX with the price range of EX1 with AVC Intra and better CCD, also maybe make some kind of retrofit for HPX (hopefully).

That will be so great.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Kaku Ito

Now we can guess that the new consumer SD9 has AVCHD with 24p...

Confirmed. It's 1080p24 with a 17 mbps AVCHD datarate from a 960x540 1/6-inch 3CCD sensor.

List price is $799.95. At CES, I heard release dates of March as well as May/June in the US. There's a $1,099.95 HS9 with a 60 GB hard drive as well.

It has some nice features, including zebras (not sure what levels) and a focus ring, as well as OIS.

HDMI out is included, but it's behind the battery. Mic input is included (not behind the battery!) USB-2 is the computer interface.

[Mark Donnell]

I asked the Panasonic people about AVC Intra and the HVX at last year's NAB. They said it was doubtful that the HVX would get AVC Intra, because the digital processor runs "hot" (their words) due to the tremendous computational demands of AVC Intra. Remember that AVC Intra is an entirely different beast from AVCHD. Even if the HVX could put out AVC Intra, editing the resulting files would be very demanding using current computer technology. Possible, but very demanding.

[Kaku Ito]

As far as the workflow right now, Pana is going with ProRes422 for Mac and converting to DVCPROHD for Windows from AVCIntra.

I found out the AVCIntra board for HPX2100 is approx. $3000.
If they put the board in the future HVX, it would be so expensive.
They probably have to get to say 700 horizontal line resolution with the CCD, too to justify the recording resolution.

[Sergio Perez]

Kaku,

700 lines seems realistic nowadays, seeing how the EX, Canon Gl and even the JVC200 resolve it, don't you think?

Panasonic have a hit and a market leader incertain markets in the form of the HVX. The Sony EX is currently chalenging this market. The new HVX should be coming by keeping its strong points and improving in its defects.
HVX's CCD technology is its saving grace from most Cmos related issues, the DVCPRO HD codec is solid, but only resolves 1280x1080 resolution for NTSC.

With better resolution chips (i dream for 1280x720 2/3 pixel shifted ccd's for fantastic 1080p and low light performance) a stronger codec (avc-intra) and the possibility of recording in dvcprohd, with variable frame rates, a better Manual fixed lens, not unlike the Sony's Fujinon, and of course the fantastic P2 workflow, and we have the market leader for the next 3 years- Scarlett included.

[Kaku Ito]

If Panasonic make the new HVX more expensive, the price comparable to EX1, then they can play around little more can't they? Then they could also come out with a cheaper AVCHD based little brother for the prosumer market.

[Joe Lawry]

If they did that would they ditch the current hvx all together?

it seems to make sense having 2 models.. but ditching the current one almost seems like a shame.

[Robert Lane]

I'm not on the inside track anymore with Panasonic, but at last year's NAB we all (the consultants) discussed the possibility and implications of AVC-I on the 200; from what the engineers told us it wasn't feasible to incorporate the technology into the 200 because of lack of space and the need for better cooling, which is why it's a natural fit for the larger ENG bodies.

However, Panasonic is first an engineering company so whatever they finally produce is the end result of tons of scientific testing before they release a product. That's a huge philosophical change from other manufacturers who often use what's called, "feature-revision" design.

My point being, that AVC-I will most likely find it's way into a camera similar to the 200 in form factor but it will be a new animal all-together, because Panny will most likely re-think it's design from the inside out rather than feature-tweak.

[Kaku Ito]

i wish they had made the HPX500 to take the upgrade board.

[Jon Fairhurst]

You're probably right, Robert.

If they remove the tape drive, there will be more room for heat management, but that's not a tweak. That's a ground-up design.

[TingSern Wong]

May I ask - what is exactly wrong with DVCPRO HD codec, as it stands today? Other than the smaller files of AVC-INTRA, are there any great / compelling advantages of AVC-I over DVCPRO HD?

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by TingSern Wong

May I ask - what is exactly wrong with DVCPRO HD codec, as it stands today? ........... are there any great / compelling advantages of AVC-I over DVCPRO HD?

There's nothing "wrong" with DVCProHD, but like most things, that's not to say it is perfect, and can't be improved upon.

Most obvious potential advantages of AVC-I are the ability to support full raster recording at 10 bit (so 1920x1080 instead of 1280x1080) and still at 100Mbs. Alternatively, a slight increase to 1440x1080 and stick to 8 bit and you halve the file size cf DVCProHD. (50Mbs)

[TingSern Wong]

Thanks for the education.

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by David Heath

Alternatively, a slight increase to 1440x1080 and stick to 8 bit and you halve the file size cf DVCProHD. (50Mbs)

Close, but not quite. When you go to 50mbps it's still 10-bit, but it drops to 4:2:0.