Panasonic HVX answers the EX1 Push at DVinfo.net

Gregger Jones · November 30th, 2007, 10:23 AM

Starting Monday Panasonic will be giving away a free 16gig P2 card with every HVX purchase. Hot off the press.

Ethan Cooper · November 30th, 2007, 10:44 AM

Not bad, not bad. But they might want to answer with some new hardware. The EX1 hype machine is picking up steam and since Panny hasn't even announced anything yet, it'll be a while before a product makes it to market given their past track record.
Unless there's a problem with the EX1 when it hits the streets, the only thing Panny can do at this point to keep people from dumping their money into Sony's pockets is to announce a new camera.

Gregger Jones · November 30th, 2007, 11:10 AM

May be a good thing. The Sony has been outsold 10 to 1 by Panasonic lately so the drought may get some rain. There are trade offs either way with compression and time tested ability. We have done the side by side with the EX HVX and 500. I must say I am impressed but then again all three do some incredible things.

Jeff Heywood · November 30th, 2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregger Jones

May be a good thing. The Sony has been outsold 10 to 1 by Panasonic lately so the drought may get some rain. There are trade offs either way with compression and time tested ability. We have done the side by side with the EX HVX and 500. I must say I am impressed but then again all three do some incredible things.

What did you find from that test?

Gregger Jones · November 30th, 2007, 02:22 PM

In a lot of ways the EX is more sensitive to light than the 200 and right up there with the 500 but that seems right because of the chip size. Also lets not forget the picture going to the monitor via hd/sdi is not gonna be the same picture after a compression rate of 35hq or 25mb(like HDV). So theoretically the best setup would be an EX tapped to an AJA box tapped to a laptop.

Bob Woodhead · November 30th, 2007, 02:41 PM

Does it matter that the cheapest lens for the 500 is about the same price as the entire PMWEX1? (as an example of other "minor" differences)

Robert Lane · November 30th, 2007, 05:59 PM

If you believe all the glossy hype about the EX1 then by all means, jump on board, but I can't imagine using any camera at any price or format that uses a rolling shutter. That feature alone would keep me away from the Sony regardless what else it's capable of.

No doubt, Sony has created what basically amounts to a tapeless Z1 - on steriods. Nice features, especially lens controls and from the quick time we had with the pre-production model it's definitely user-friendly with good menu structure and the large, high-res flip-out LCD and better "low-light" performance.

But what it all comes down to is image quality. Forget about color space, bitrates blah, blah... if you haven't seen what a rolling shutter does to imagery then you're in for a shock.

Sony could have easily produced an HVX killer but just like with the other XDCAM models they've shot themselves in the foot with goofy visual engineering that just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Comparing the EX1 to the HPX500 is a waste of time; the two have completely different markets and missions. The EX1 fits squarely in the same market as all the other handheld, fixed-lens cameras and should be compared to the same. The HPX500's competitors are the other ENG-type, shoulder rigs that have removable lens mounts and 2/3" inch chips.

Check out the posts from Barry and look at the various samples now available on the web about EX1 rolling shutter. If you can live with smear, image skew and other nasty, can't-be-fixed-in-post issues, then be my guest and buy the EX1.

Kaku Ito · November 30th, 2007, 06:49 PM

Rolling shutter, image skew, smear, all sounds like what MP3 does to the sound, shifting phase, in correct balance of frequency distribution, different impression of the songs' dynamics.

As far as I know, with the rolling shutter issue and the MPEG issue combination, HDV and XDCAM are only good for static or almost static shots.
Sony knows that those issues won't change the sales of EX1 and HDV cams much.

Steven Thomas · December 1st, 2007, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaku Ito

As far as I know, with the rolling shutter issue and the MPEG issue combination, HDV and XDCAM are only good for static or almost static shots.

HDV, I agree
XDCAM 35mb.. No way, rock solid.

Robert Lane · December 1st, 2007, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

HDV, I agree
XDCAM 35mb.. No way, rock solid.

If bitrate was all it took to make good imagery then the HVX would never have made the splash on the market that it has. The issue with the EX1 isn't XDCAM's bitrate - which has little to do with overall image quality. Take a look at the various posts by Barry and others both here on the forum and on the examples on the web and you'll see for yourselves where and why the EX1 falls short.

TingSern Wong · December 1st, 2007, 10:29 PM

In other words, why should Pany has to fear Sony then? Why are they giving away one 16GB P2 - if the HVX202 is that superior to the EX1? I own a HVX202 - and I don't think the Pany's product is any inferior to Sony's EX1. I produce excellent videos from the HVX202. Prior camera was a Canon XL2. There is something I have to "kudos" to Sony - their marketing is dammed good.

Kaku Ito · December 2nd, 2007, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

HDV, I agree
XDCAM 35mb.. No way, rock solid.

I heard it happens on XDCAM, take the cam to mountain, follow mountainbiker going fast in front of forest. If XDCAM passes that, it would be rock solid, then I will be interested. HDV is mostly okay, but it fails my needs in the mountain.

My friend tested EX1 at InterBEE and it appeared to have rolling shutter problem. Not as much he expected but it is still there. I wish they would fix it as much as I want Panasonic to make HVX better light sensitivity and higher resolution.

EX1 is over $8000 in Japan, so there's nothing by Panasonic in that price range. So, fill in the gap with something like HVX300 wouldn't be a bad idea.

Leonard Levy · December 2nd, 2007, 06:39 PM

I looked at the EX-1 a few days ago guys and it is one hell of a camera. I couldn't get it to exhibit any rolling shutter problems though no doubt it must under some circumstances but i would be a little more circumspect in knocking a piece of gear you've never seen.

It does have vignetting issues and those do seem serious. I don't know if they are fixable at this point, but Panny will have to bust their butt to respond to this camera. Stiil don't know about green screen as its 4:2:0 but don't knock in theory until you've seen it in practice.

As for overall image quality - Barry hasn't said anything about that from what I've seen anywhere - and let me tell you this camera looks very very good. I don't know 35Mbits or long GOP from breakfast cereal so editing issues I can't speak about.

Kaku Ito · December 2nd, 2007, 08:20 PM

I've seen the camera at InterBEE. Also, the images from Phil Bloom are great.
So, I have no doubt that EX1 would be great for most of people, but I won't expect so much for using this cam for many of my needs.

I'm speaking from my experiences with Sony's handling and attitude towards media (both music and video) quality that I don't trust. They have been advertising 5.1 surround support of their consumer camcorders when it only records 4 channels and that could be edited to be 5.1, which mean it is not discrete 5.1 surround. Even mono audio can be edited to be 5.1 and they continue to advertise things are not discrete as discrete, I won't trust that company, so sorry but I have more doubts in Sony than most people, so you can take my opinions as other extreme. By the way, Sony is the company advertised Comact Disc being superior than Vinyl records and later, when they came out with Super Audio CD, they said CD could not be better than vinyl so they made SACD. Sony has so much technologies, so hope they put their minds in studying the media culture more carefully, so they can make person like me shut up.

However, I'm totally agree with Leonard about the good image quality that we've been seeing so far, they are all carefully shot and chosen. Sony can challenge me to let me use it for a couple of weeks to see if EX1 is really rock solid. In fact that is what I'm going to do as usual. I'd cover the story for my magazine column.

There's certainly push from EX1 against HVX200, there are many features and quality with EX1 that exceeds HVX200's, so certainly, Panasonic should come out with a model between HPX and HVX200.

Robert Lane · December 2nd, 2007, 09:06 PM

Somewhere you posted a link to an article you did on the differences of CCD vs CMOS imagers and it's affect on images (I can't find it quickly) - care to post that link here so people can see exactly what the EX1's limitations are?

November 30th, 2007, 10:23 AM	#1
Gregger Jones Sponsor: Abel Cine Tech Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chicago IL Posts: 13	Panasonic HVX answers the EX1 Push Starting Monday Panasonic will be giving away a free 16gig P2 card with every HVX purchase. Hot off the press.

November 30th, 2007, 10:44 AM	#2
Ethan Cooper Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 1,400 Images: 5	Not bad, not bad. But they might want to answer with some new hardware. The EX1 hype machine is picking up steam and since Panny hasn't even announced anything yet, it'll be a while before a product makes it to market given their past track record. Unless there's a problem with the EX1 when it hits the streets, the only thing Panny can do at this point to keep people from dumping their money into Sony's pockets is to announce a new camera. __________________ ∅ -Ethan Cooper

November 30th, 2007, 11:10 AM	#3
Gregger Jones Sponsor: Abel Cine Tech Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chicago IL Posts: 13	no cam is better or worse... they are just different May be a good thing. The Sony has been outsold 10 to 1 by Panasonic lately so the drought may get some rain. There are trade offs either way with compression and time tested ability. We have done the side by side with the EX HVX and 500. I must say I am impressed but then again all three do some incredible things.

November 30th, 2007, 02:22 PM	#5
Gregger Jones Sponsor: Abel Cine Tech Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chicago IL Posts: 13	Mostly just the obvious In a lot of ways the EX is more sensitive to light than the 200 and right up there with the 500 but that seems right because of the chip size. Also lets not forget the picture going to the monitor via hd/sdi is not gonna be the same picture after a compression rate of 35hq or 25mb(like HDV). So theoretically the best setup would be an EX tapped to an AJA box tapped to a laptop.

December 2nd, 2007, 09:06 PM	#15
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,823 Images: 15	Hey Barry... Somewhere you posted a link to an article you did on the differences of CCD vs CMOS imagers and it's affect on images (I can't find it quickly) - care to post that link here so people can see exactly what the EX1's limitations are?

November 30th, 2007, 02:41 PM	#6
Bob Woodhead Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 59	Does it matter that the cheapest lens for the 500 is about the same price as the entire PMWEX1? (as an example of other "minor" differences)

November 30th, 2007, 05:59 PM	#7
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,823 Images: 15	If you believe all the glossy hype about the EX1 then by all means, jump on board, but I can't imagine using any camera at any price or format that uses a rolling shutter. That feature alone would keep me away from the Sony regardless what else it's capable of. No doubt, Sony has created what basically amounts to a tapeless Z1 - on steriods. Nice features, especially lens controls and from the quick time we had with the pre-production model it's definitely user-friendly with good menu structure and the large, high-res flip-out LCD and better "low-light" performance. But what it all comes down to is image quality. Forget about color space, bitrates blah, blah... if you haven't seen what a rolling shutter does to imagery then you're in for a shock. Sony could have easily produced an HVX killer but just like with the other XDCAM models they've shot themselves in the foot with goofy visual engineering that just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Comparing the EX1 to the HPX500 is a waste of time; the two have completely different markets and missions. The EX1 fits squarely in the same market as all the other handheld, fixed-lens cameras and should be compared to the same. The HPX500's competitors are the other ENG-type, shoulder rigs that have removable lens mounts and 2/3" inch chips. Check out the posts from Barry and look at the various samples now available on the web about EX1 rolling shutter. If you can live with smear, image skew and other nasty, can't-be-fixed-in-post issues, then be my guest and buy the EX1.

November 30th, 2007, 06:49 PM	#8
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	Rolling shutter, image skew, smear, all sounds like what MP3 does to the sound, shifting phase, in correct balance of frequency distribution, different impression of the songs' dynamics. As far as I know, with the rolling shutter issue and the MPEG issue combination, HDV and XDCAM are only good for static or almost static shots. Sony knows that those issues won't change the sales of EX1 and HDV cams much.

December 1st, 2007, 10:29 PM	#11
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	In other words, why should Pany has to fear Sony then? Why are they giving away one 16GB P2 - if the HVX202 is that superior to the EX1? I own a HVX202 - and I don't think the Pany's product is any inferior to Sony's EX1. I produce excellent videos from the HVX202. Prior camera was a Canon XL2. There is something I have to "kudos" to Sony - their marketing is dammed good.

December 2nd, 2007, 06:39 PM	#13
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	I looked at the EX-1 a few days ago guys and it is one hell of a camera. I couldn't get it to exhibit any rolling shutter problems though no doubt it must under some circumstances but i would be a little more circumspect in knocking a piece of gear you've never seen. It does have vignetting issues and those do seem serious. I don't know if they are fixable at this point, but Panny will have to bust their butt to respond to this camera. Stiil don't know about green screen as its 4:2:0 but don't knock in theory until you've seen it in practice. As for overall image quality - Barry hasn't said anything about that from what I've seen anywhere - and let me tell you this camera looks very very good. I don't know 35Mbits or long GOP from breakfast cereal so editing issues I can't speak about.

December 2nd, 2007, 08:20 PM	#14
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	I've seen the camera at InterBEE. Also, the images from Phil Bloom are great. So, I have no doubt that EX1 would be great for most of people, but I won't expect so much for using this cam for many of my needs. I'm speaking from my experiences with Sony's handling and attitude towards media (both music and video) quality that I don't trust. They have been advertising 5.1 surround support of their consumer camcorders when it only records 4 channels and that could be edited to be 5.1, which mean it is not discrete 5.1 surround. Even mono audio can be edited to be 5.1 and they continue to advertise things are not discrete as discrete, I won't trust that company, so sorry but I have more doubts in Sony than most people, so you can take my opinions as other extreme. By the way, Sony is the company advertised Comact Disc being superior than Vinyl records and later, when they came out with Super Audio CD, they said CD could not be better than vinyl so they made SACD. Sony has so much technologies, so hope they put their minds in studying the media culture more carefully, so they can make person like me shut up. However, I'm totally agree with Leonard about the good image quality that we've been seeing so far, they are all carefully shot and chosen. Sony can challenge me to let me use it for a couple of weeks to see if EX1 is really rock solid. In fact that is what I'm going to do as usual. I'd cover the story for my magazine column. There's certainly push from EX1 against HVX200, there are many features and quality with EX1 that exceeds HVX200's, so certainly, Panasonic should come out with a model between HPX and HVX200.