HELP: should I buy more P2 cards or sell HVX and buy an EX1? at DVinfo.net

Bill Edmunds · November 12th, 2007, 08:29 AM

Here's my quandry: I own an HVX200 and have a pair of 8gb P2 cards. I'm at a crossroads: should I invest more $$$ in P2 cards or sell the HVX200 and buy a Sony EX1? It seems to me that the EX1 is a better camera all around and ultmately won't cost any more than investing in more P2 cards. I really like the HVX200 but it falls short in several areas: low light, noise, LCD resolution, etc. Can anyone tell me why it might be better to hang onto the HVX200 and invest more in P2? 'Cause right now I don't see much reason. Where is the HVX200 better than the EX1 (at least on paper)? I shoot a lot of weddings and outdoor stuff if that's any help.

David Saraceno · November 12th, 2007, 11:14 AM

Dealing with LONG GOP intraframe is always that issue with me.

We had a Z1U. Great image.

Long GOP just wasn't worth it.

Joel Chappell · November 12th, 2007, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Saraceno

Dealing with LONG GOP intraframe is always that issue with me.

We had a Z1U. Great image.

Long GOP just wasn't worth it.

Specifically, how did Long GOP affect you? I am very interested to know.

Thanks.

Benjamin Hill · November 12th, 2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Edmunds

Here's my quandry: I own an HVX200 and have a pair of 8gb P2 cards. I'm at a crossroads: should I invest more $$$ in P2 cards or sell the HVX200 and buy a Sony EX1? It seems to me that the EX1 is a better camera all around and ultmately won't cost any more than investing in more P2 cards. I really like the HVX200 but it falls short in several areas: low light, noise, LCD resolution, etc. Can anyone tell me why it might be better to hang onto the HVX200 and invest more in P2? 'Cause right now I don't see much reason. Where is the HVX200 better than the EX1 (at least on paper)? I shoot a lot of weddings and outdoor stuff if that's any help.

I wouldn't say any camera is "better all around" so much as "better for certain uses."

I used the HVX200 system for a solid year before switching to the Canon HDV workflow. I was willing to accept the trade-offs (Long GOP compression and susceptibility to dropouts; reduced color space; real-time capture, etc.) in favor or simplicity and economy. Still not 100% happy with it, but better for my style of working.

Mathieu Ghekiere · November 12th, 2007, 12:35 PM

The Codec of the HVX MAY be a bit better, but I don't know if it will matter much. Maybe the HVX will give you a more filmic look out of the box.
I think that's about it with the advantages of the HVX, the EX seems like the better cam.

Barry Green · November 13th, 2007, 03:01 AM

Why not wait until it comes out and people put it through its paces before deciding?

The biggest points of concern for me are the long-GOP recording mode (it's about 33% more data than HDV, with about 40% more bandwidth, so it may end up being about as robust as HDV) and the potential for CMOS rolling shutter issues. If you don't need it right now, why leap on it? Why not let others be the early adopters, and then you can make a more informed decision?

TingSern Wong · November 13th, 2007, 03:04 AM

Bill,

Why not get a P2Store at 60GB ... since you have 2 x 8GB P2 cards, you could record on one P2 card and get P2Store to offload the other. Then you can get your continuous recording needed for weddings, etc.

Tom Hardwick · November 13th, 2007, 04:18 AM

I think the move to half inch chips is what it's all about Bill. If you shoot a lot of weddings you'll know that low light is your enemy and differential focus is your friend, and the EX1 answers these with it's bigger chips and great 14x non-ramping f/1.9 zoom. Forget the long gops - when were you last attacked by them, huh?

Of course the move from the Panasonic will cost you dear and in reality few clients will notice, but you and I and everyone here will. The HVX was really a modified DVX100, pumped up and fed expensive cards. The EX1 is a rethink in very many ways, but of course it's the big chips that lift it out of the prosumer dof humdrum.

tom.

Bill Edmunds · November 13th, 2007, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

The biggest points of concern for me are the long-GOP recording mode (it's about 33% more data than HDV, with about 40% more bandwidth, so it may end up being about as robust as HDV) and the potential for CMOS rolling shutter issues.

CMOS rolling shutter issues? Haven't heard about this... what is it?

Barry Green · November 13th, 2007, 07:09 AM

It's something any shooter should educate themselves on. CMOS chips expose differently from CCD chips, and the old rules don't necessarily apply.

For more info, just type in "rolling shutter" here on DVInfo and you'll find gobs and gobs of posts, mostly about the HV20 and FX7/V1U since those are the most prevalent CMOS cams out so far.

Eric Peltier · November 13th, 2007, 03:08 PM

Thanks Barry,
Great article, as always very informative.

Bill,
If you can wait, I'm testing/evaluating the new SonyPMW-EX1 sometime next week.
I own 2 HVX, I'm planning to run tests to compare the 2 cameras.
I'll post my results.
So take Barry's advice, don't jump in the water just yet :)
e.

Bill Edmunds · November 13th, 2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Peltier

If you can wait, I'm testing/evaluating the new SonyPMW-EX1 sometime next week.
I own 2 HVX, I'm planning to run tests to compare the 2 cameras.
I'll post my results.
So take Barry's advice, don't jump in the water just yet :)
e.

I will definitely wait! I'll be very interested in hearing if the shutter issues are present in the EX1. Thank you so much for doing this comparison!!!

E.J. Sadler · November 13th, 2007, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Hardwick

but of course it's the big chips that lift it out of the prosumer dof humdrum.

With 1.9 on the wide end, this cameras DOF isn't going to be perceptually that different than a 1/3" camera. I mean, we're talking about 8mm film DOF. Your clients aren't going to see a difference.

E.J. Sadler · November 13th, 2007, 08:31 PM

If you shoot a lot in low light, the EX1 will definitely pay off in very little time and is reason enough to switch.

But if low light isn't an issue and you do a lot of grading, DVCPro HD is vastly superior to the codec than you're going to get with the EX1. With a 4:2:0 color space, you'll constantly be hitting the limit of where you can go with your grading, usually way before you want to stop.

But if you can fit a Convergent XDR into your budget, then the EX1 would be my choice. Low light performance, AVC Intra, and compact flash.

Steven Thomas · November 13th, 2007, 08:34 PM

The problem is that "some" jump on the typical response about all rolling shutters are the same. Yes, wait until there's footage and decide at that point.
Don't be persuaded and jump to the thought that Sony stuck the same exact CMOS shutter that's implemented in another cheap CMOS camera.
RED is using a rolling shutter.

The EX1 is going to turn a lot of heads soon.
422 10bit SDI
1/2 CCDs
1000 lines horz. rez
Not to mention, true 1080 full HD raster sensors, NOT pixel shift.
$6449 USD

November 12th, 2007, 08:29 AM	#1
Bill Edmunds Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Conway, NH Posts: 574	HELP: should I buy more P2 cards or sell HVX and buy an EX1? Here's my quandry: I own an HVX200 and have a pair of 8gb P2 cards. I'm at a crossroads: should I invest more $$$ in P2 cards or sell the HVX200 and buy a Sony EX1? It seems to me that the EX1 is a better camera all around and ultmately won't cost any more than investing in more P2 cards. I really like the HVX200 but it falls short in several areas: low light, noise, LCD resolution, etc. Can anyone tell me why it might be better to hang onto the HVX200 and invest more in P2? 'Cause right now I don't see much reason. Where is the HVX200 better than the EX1 (at least on paper)? I shoot a lot of weddings and outdoor stuff if that's any help.

November 12th, 2007, 12:35 PM	#5
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	The Codec of the HVX MAY be a bit better, but I don't know if it will matter much. Maybe the HVX will give you a more filmic look out of the box. I think that's about it with the advantages of the HVX, the EX seems like the better cam. __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

November 13th, 2007, 03:08 PM	#11
Eric Peltier Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: San Francisco/Paris Posts: 121	Thanks Barry, Great article, as always very informative. Bill, If you can wait, I'm testing/evaluating the new SonyPMW-EX1 sometime next week. I own 2 HVX, I'm planning to run tests to compare the 2 cameras. I'll post my results. So take Barry's advice, don't jump in the water just yet :) e. __________________ Sights Sounds Stories www.tinboxtwo.com www.reardenstudios.com

November 12th, 2007, 11:14 AM	#2
David Saraceno Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inland Northwest Posts: 490	Dealing with LONG GOP intraframe is always that issue with me. We had a Z1U. Great image. Long GOP just wasn't worth it.

November 13th, 2007, 03:01 AM	#6
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Why not wait until it comes out and people put it through its paces before deciding? The biggest points of concern for me are the long-GOP recording mode (it's about 33% more data than HDV, with about 40% more bandwidth, so it may end up being about as robust as HDV) and the potential for CMOS rolling shutter issues. If you don't need it right now, why leap on it? Why not let others be the early adopters, and then you can make a more informed decision?

November 13th, 2007, 03:04 AM	#7
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Bill, Why not get a P2Store at 60GB ... since you have 2 x 8GB P2 cards, you could record on one P2 card and get P2Store to offload the other. Then you can get your continuous recording needed for weddings, etc.

November 13th, 2007, 04:18 AM	#8
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	I think the move to half inch chips is what it's all about Bill. If you shoot a lot of weddings you'll know that low light is your enemy and differential focus is your friend, and the EX1 answers these with it's bigger chips and great 14x non-ramping f/1.9 zoom. Forget the long gops - when were you last attacked by them, huh? Of course the move from the Panasonic will cost you dear and in reality few clients will notice, but you and I and everyone here will. The HVX was really a modified DVX100, pumped up and fed expensive cards. The EX1 is a rethink in very many ways, but of course it's the big chips that lift it out of the prosumer dof humdrum. tom.

November 13th, 2007, 07:09 AM	#10
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	It's something any shooter should educate themselves on. CMOS chips expose differently from CCD chips, and the old rules don't necessarily apply. For more info, just type in "rolling shutter" here on DVInfo and you'll find gobs and gobs of posts, mostly about the HV20 and FX7/V1U since those are the most prevalent CMOS cams out so far.

November 13th, 2007, 08:31 PM	#14
E.J. Sadler Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: ATL Posts: 65	If you shoot a lot in low light, the EX1 will definitely pay off in very little time and is reason enough to switch. But if low light isn't an issue and you do a lot of grading, DVCPro HD is vastly superior to the codec than you're going to get with the EX1. With a 4:2:0 color space, you'll constantly be hitting the limit of where you can go with your grading, usually way before you want to stop. But if you can fit a Convergent XDR into your budget, then the EX1 would be my choice. Low light performance, AVC Intra, and compact flash.

November 13th, 2007, 08:34 PM	#15
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	The problem is that "some" jump on the typical response about all rolling shutters are the same. Yes, wait until there's footage and decide at that point. Don't be persuaded and jump to the thought that Sony stuck the same exact CMOS shutter that's implemented in another cheap CMOS camera. RED is using a rolling shutter. The EX1 is going to turn a lot of heads soon. 422 10bit SDI 1/2 CCDs 1000 lines horz. rez Not to mention, true 1080 full HD raster sensors, NOT pixel shift. $6449 USD