Archiving P2 Footage?

Barry Green · February 2nd, 2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TingSern Wong

DVCPRO HD tape drives cost US$25,000. Way too expensive. Besides, why record on DVCPRO HD tapes - which is analog (somebody please correct me if I am wrong) ...

Consider yourself corrected. ;)

DVCPRO-HD tape is digital tape, and the footage is bit-for-bit identical to what would be recorded on the P2 cards. It's a direct digital copy.

Quote:

One thing to keep in mind when backing up on DVCPRO tape is that the native resolution of the P2 card won't work. 1080p is not possible, the best you can do is 720p.

Not true. DVCPRO-HD tape has supported 1080 from the first day it was introduced; 720p was actually a later development. DVCPRO-HD tape records 1080p the exact same way the P2 card records it: as either 2:3, 2:2, or 2:3:3:2 pulldown.

In any case, it'll be recorded identically to how the P2 card records it.

Now, with all that said, I strongly agree with Tingsern:

Quote:

Easier to backup the digital data on computer grade media (like SDLT tapes) or even removable Hard-disks (like some people have suggested).

Archiving to DVCPRO-HD tape is slow, exorbitantly expensive, inconvenient, and a huge step backwards in the workflow. Why go with a $25,000 deck, and $1 per gigabyte tapes, to convert all your lovely metadata-enhanced clip-based files into an old tedious linear tape-based, timecode-based workflow?

Why not, instead, get a $3,000 LTO3 deck, archive at 10 cents per gigabyte, and do so at 2x or 4x or 8x faster than realtime, and get to archive all your metadata and keep the clip-based nature of the files?

If you want to archive on tape, go with data tape, a much more efficient, modern, affordable, faster, and useful archive system. The only reason I can think of to involve DVCPRO-HD tape at all would be if your delivery requirements absolutely specified a tape master (such as for Discovery HD, who won't accept digital masters yet). Other than that, ditch the old videotape workflow and get the full benefit of a tapeless, data-based workflow.

Francesco Dal Bosco · February 4th, 2008, 12:34 PM

The LTO3 tape archiving solution seems very interesting. I'm wondering how I should connect the drive to my computer. I suppose it's not possible to use firewire. I'm working with three 750g internal discs of my Mac Pro. Should I have SCSI discs instead?

TingSern Wong · February 4th, 2008, 09:05 PM

Your internal HDDs can stay at SATA ... no problems. No need to change that to SCSI. However nearly all tape drives today (external version) are still SCSI. Haven't seen any LTO3 drives that are Firewire.

You can buy a SCSI host adapter and plug the card into your Mac Pro ....

If you need Firewire or USB2 - go for VXA-320 ... cheaper than LTO3 - but the speed is slower ....

Francesco Dal Bosco · February 5th, 2008, 02:50 AM

Thank you very much TingSern. Maybe the firewire soultion is the right one for me. I will check the specs of vxa-320 and compatible tapes. As Barry said LTO 3 tapes have a really affordable price (about 10 cents per Giga).

TingSern Wong · February 5th, 2008, 03:31 AM

LTO3 (and now, LTO4) is a high end solution. Very fast tape drive. You will need SCSI 160 minimum for the host adapter. Traditionally meant for enterprise use. Tape drive is expensive (US$5K list).

http://www.exabyte.com/products/prod..._id=601#prices

VXA-320 is a "cheaper" option ... (US$1.5K list). Some manufacturers offer it as Firewire or USB2 - but, the real performance comes when you plug it into SCSI bus ...

http://www.exabyte.com/products/prod..._id=641#prices

Phillip Palacios · February 5th, 2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TingSern Wong

Tape drive is expensive (US$5K list).

that is cheap compared to a DVCPro HD deck!
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...HD_Studio.html

I use optical and hard drive backups personally.

TingSern Wong · February 5th, 2008, 08:04 PM

Optical is okay for medium to long term backups. But we still need to check the optical medium for "rot" every two years or so. NEVER use HDD for long term backups. Too many things can go wrong - motor, head positioning mechanisms, the bearings, etc ... there are just too many mechanical parts in a HDD. HDDs are okay to backup the working set. The best long term storage medium is still TAPE.

As Barry said - DVCPro HD tape decks are a huge step in the wrong direction. They are very slow and you will loose the META data going that way.

LTO3 (and 4) tape drives prices are list prices. You can get them cheaper from the dealers - I have seen LTO3 drives going down as low as US$3K. Tapes are US$80 for 800 Gigabytes capacity.

Joseph Olesh · February 12th, 2008, 06:44 PM

I use g-tech exclusively. I very primitively gaff tape the project name on the side of a G-Raid 2, 1 TB drive and stack accordingly. One large project @ DVCPRO HD or a couple smaller ones do well on the TB drive. As of now, I have 3 separate TB drives, a couple of 500 MB and a couple of 40s that I got for free at NAB last year that come in amazingly handy.

As my own infrastructure grows, I will need to amend this system... but for now, it's nice knowing the info is safe on separate drives and G-Tech has proven to be reliable thus far.

Joe.

Dave Beaty · February 16th, 2008, 02:52 PM

I have been using DLT since around 1996. I abanonded DLT around 2002. Never used the LTO machines. While it is a robust technology, the ease of use and cost vs hard drive storage persuaded us go with hard drive backup. Digital tape technology also can fail. I have had at least 2-3 tape units fail and require expensive repairs. In those cases they also damaged the DLT tapes in the transports. So DLT is not 100% failure proof. It is also much slower than harddrives. Random access times for retrieval are painfully slow compared to hard drives.

We are now using hard drives for P2 backup. Wiebetech interfaces allow raw internal drives to be used and swapped out with little effort. In our experience hard drive failures from shelving them are rare. (has never happened to me since 2002) As long as they are in climate controlled environments. I have Seagate 18GB RAID harddrives from 1996 that spin up fine. No issues. I very rarely mount those RAID and they sit on the shelf. So, the definitive statements about the use of harddrives as long term storage are not definitive as those making them would like to believe.

While spinning up drives on a regular basis is probably great, is it nessesary and proven to be effective maintenance or just guess work? For instance, who has done the research that shows a weekly spin up vs a monthly vs a 6 monthly vs a yearly spin up would result in any difference? I would think it's more of guess work that sounds good rather than actual fact. I think because the platters are sealed, and not exposed to the atmosphere, they will last a long time on a shelf regardless of use.

For linear tapes, perhaps the glues that hold the oxides on the polymer will dissolve before the hard drive's bearings will oxidize and seize.

It's amazing nobody was selling plastic archive cases for hard drives before last month.

TingSern Wong · February 16th, 2008, 09:39 PM

Dave,

Thanks for the great feedback on DLT tape transport. I am not sure what exactly is your problem - but, my former company (an airline) has been backing up their Open System data (amounting to roughly 800TB) on SDLT and LTO tape drives daily. If that tape/transport is that bad - they will be the first people to scream on a regular basis. I haven't heard anybody bad mouth any SDLT or LTO tape stuff so far ... And theirs is a daily operation ...

Wesley Wong · November 23rd, 2008, 10:12 PM

I'd like to find out, esp from the other 'Wong' countryman :) -

How robust / costly are the tape heads for the DLO or similar data tape back up solutions then ?

Digibeta / DVC pro HD : all these video format tapes are excruciatingly expensive.

I am investigating and trying to come up with an enterprise solution for video data backup (like p2 and xdcam ex) inclusive of NLE editing project files. I really need lots of back data since this is for an institute of learning.

Sincerely,

Wesley Wong

TingSern Wong · November 23rd, 2008, 11:41 PM

Hi the "other Wong" :-),

I guess you must be from one of the Polys? Temasek, Republic, Nee Ann?

Head replacement for DLT, SDLT, LTO ... the h/w cost is okay. It is the labour cost that kills. One only replaces heads once in a blue moon - maybe, once in 5 years ... if you are in one of those Polys (and Universities) - just ask a vendor to do that for you.

Here, we are doing daily backups of the Open System data - now, maybe - 1PB worth (1,000 TB). Dumping data into SDLT and/or LTO tape drives. We connect the tape drives by SCSI, ESCON, Fibre Channel, etc ... to the data base machines.

Video data (P2, XDCAM, etc) - are all computer data. So, it makes NO difference here - whether you are backing up databases or video data - it is all bits and bytes. VERY much faster to backup and restore as well.

Forget about Digibeta or DVCPRO HD tape machines - they only go real time (100 hours of video - takes 100 hours to backup). And costs an arm and a leg as well.

February 12th, 2008, 06:44 PM	#53
Joseph Olesh Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Washington D.C. Posts: 33	I use g-tech exclusively. I very primitively gaff tape the project name on the side of a G-Raid 2, 1 TB drive and stack accordingly. One large project @ DVCPRO HD or a couple smaller ones do well on the TB drive. As of now, I have 3 separate TB drives, a couple of 500 MB and a couple of 40s that I got for free at NAB last year that come in amazingly handy. As my own infrastructure grows, I will need to amend this system... but for now, it's nice knowing the info is safe on separate drives and G-Tech has proven to be reliable thus far. Joe. __________________ di bernardi productions. san luis obispo, ca.

November 23rd, 2008, 10:12 PM	#56
Wesley Wong Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 143	I'd like to find out, esp from the other 'Wong' countryman :) - How robust / costly are the tape heads for the DLO or similar data tape back up solutions then ? Digibeta / DVC pro HD : all these video format tapes are excruciatingly expensive. I am investigating and trying to come up with an enterprise solution for video data backup (like p2 and xdcam ex) inclusive of NLE editing project files. I really need lots of back data since this is for an institute of learning. Sincerely, Wesley Wong __________________ Do more, learn more

February 4th, 2008, 12:34 PM	#47
Francesco Dal Bosco Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 31	The LTO3 tape archiving solution seems very interesting. I'm wondering how I should connect the drive to my computer. I suppose it's not possible to use firewire. I'm working with three 750g internal discs of my Mac Pro. Should I have SCSI discs instead?

February 4th, 2008, 09:05 PM	#48
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Your internal HDDs can stay at SATA ... no problems. No need to change that to SCSI. However nearly all tape drives today (external version) are still SCSI. Haven't seen any LTO3 drives that are Firewire. You can buy a SCSI host adapter and plug the card into your Mac Pro .... If you need Firewire or USB2 - go for VXA-320 ... cheaper than LTO3 - but the speed is slower ....

February 5th, 2008, 02:50 AM	#49
Francesco Dal Bosco Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 31	Thank you very much TingSern. Maybe the firewire soultion is the right one for me. I will check the specs of vxa-320 and compatible tapes. As Barry said LTO 3 tapes have a really affordable price (about 10 cents per Giga).

February 5th, 2008, 03:31 AM	#50
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	LTO3 (and now, LTO4) is a high end solution. Very fast tape drive. You will need SCSI 160 minimum for the host adapter. Traditionally meant for enterprise use. Tape drive is expensive (US$5K list). http://www.exabyte.com/products/prod..._id=601#prices VXA-320 is a "cheaper" option ... (US$1.5K list). Some manufacturers offer it as Firewire or USB2 - but, the real performance comes when you plug it into SCSI bus ... http://www.exabyte.com/products/prod..._id=641#prices

February 5th, 2008, 08:04 PM	#52
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Optical is okay for medium to long term backups. But we still need to check the optical medium for "rot" every two years or so. NEVER use HDD for long term backups. Too many things can go wrong - motor, head positioning mechanisms, the bearings, etc ... there are just too many mechanical parts in a HDD. HDDs are okay to backup the working set. The best long term storage medium is still TAPE. As Barry said - DVCPro HD tape decks are a huge step in the wrong direction. They are very slow and you will loose the META data going that way. LTO3 (and 4) tape drives prices are list prices. You can get them cheaper from the dealers - I have seen LTO3 drives going down as low as US$3K. Tapes are US$80 for 800 Gigabytes capacity.

February 16th, 2008, 02:52 PM	#54
Dave Beaty Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ft. Myers, FL Posts: 240	I have been using DLT since around 1996. I abanonded DLT around 2002. Never used the LTO machines. While it is a robust technology, the ease of use and cost vs hard drive storage persuaded us go with hard drive backup. Digital tape technology also can fail. I have had at least 2-3 tape units fail and require expensive repairs. In those cases they also damaged the DLT tapes in the transports. So DLT is not 100% failure proof. It is also much slower than harddrives. Random access times for retrieval are painfully slow compared to hard drives. We are now using hard drives for P2 backup. Wiebetech interfaces allow raw internal drives to be used and swapped out with little effort. In our experience hard drive failures from shelving them are rare. (has never happened to me since 2002) As long as they are in climate controlled environments. I have Seagate 18GB RAID harddrives from 1996 that spin up fine. No issues. I very rarely mount those RAID and they sit on the shelf. So, the definitive statements about the use of harddrives as long term storage are not definitive as those making them would like to believe. While spinning up drives on a regular basis is probably great, is it nessesary and proven to be effective maintenance or just guess work? For instance, who has done the research that shows a weekly spin up vs a monthly vs a 6 monthly vs a yearly spin up would result in any difference? I would think it's more of guess work that sounds good rather than actual fact. I think because the platters are sealed, and not exposed to the atmosphere, they will last a long time on a shelf regardless of use. For linear tapes, perhaps the glues that hold the oxides on the polymer will dissolve before the hard drive's bearings will oxidize and seize. It's amazing nobody was selling plastic archive cases for hard drives before last month.

February 16th, 2008, 09:39 PM	#55
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Dave, Thanks for the great feedback on DLT tape transport. I am not sure what exactly is your problem - but, my former company (an airline) has been backing up their Open System data (amounting to roughly 800TB) on SDLT and LTO tape drives daily. If that tape/transport is that bad - they will be the first people to scream on a regular basis. I haven't heard anybody bad mouth any SDLT or LTO tape stuff so far ... And theirs is a daily operation ...

November 23rd, 2008, 11:41 PM	#57
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Hi the "other Wong" :-), I guess you must be from one of the Polys? Temasek, Republic, Nee Ann? Head replacement for DLT, SDLT, LTO ... the h/w cost is okay. It is the labour cost that kills. One only replaces heads once in a blue moon - maybe, once in 5 years ... if you are in one of those Polys (and Universities) - just ask a vendor to do that for you. Here, we are doing daily backups of the Open System data - now, maybe - 1PB worth (1,000 TB). Dumping data into SDLT and/or LTO tape drives. We connect the tape drives by SCSI, ESCON, Fibre Channel, etc ... to the data base machines. Video data (P2, XDCAM, etc) - are all computer data. So, it makes NO difference here - whether you are backing up databases or video data - it is all bits and bytes. VERY much faster to backup and restore as well. Forget about Digibeta or DVCPRO HD tape machines - they only go real time (100 hours of video - takes 100 hours to backup). And costs an arm and a leg as well.