Archiving P2 Footage?

Ozzie Alfonso · October 13th, 2007, 12:17 AM

This is a most interesting thread. I haven't been around for a while, but I have an HD gig coming up in November - my first. We will most probably be using P2, and suddenly, how to hand the raw material to the client, is a huge concern. Since the camera and P2 cards are not mine, it is imperative I transfer them to a hard drive right in the studio, and make a backup on our own hard drive for safety.

I have been around since 2" quad tapes and seen all types of tapes eventually begin to shed, clog heads, and, as the dropouts become excessive, the priceless material in those 2", 1", 3/4", 1/2" tapes is gradually rendered useless. This is true of analog as well as digital recordings.

Now we are faced with a really neat recording medium that MUST be dumped off immediately - but to what? As I mentioned, I am very weary of tape; I have also had nightmares with drives that crash, bad blocks, missing sectors, corrupt FAT, will not boot, whatever. Even removable media - CDs, DVDs, Blue Ray, HD-DVD, can meet up with disaster - but so far I am a tad more comfortable with some removable media than I am with drives and tapes. The problem m, as I see it, is that there are no really efficient and practical removable media available that I know of. If there are, please point me in the right direction.

Most of the work I did in the early 1970s has long been transferred quite a number of times with the resulting picture degradation, or destroyed…forever. Many a Bert and Ernie routine (I began at Sesame Street) have been lost, or at best, they are no longer of broadcast quality.

TingSern Wong · November 3rd, 2007, 09:14 PM

I wondered why everybody here is so weary of tapes? We have been backing up data from enterprises onto tapes for years now. If tapes are so bad, every Fortune 500 companies data will be gone now.

We should be looking at using computer grade data tapes and mechanisms to backup P2 data (remember, with P2 data - we are now talking about bits and bytes - not analog video or audio anymore).

We have tapes (kept in conditioned environments - optimal temperature and humidity) that are already more than 10 years old - and data can still be reliably retrieved from them.

Kaku Ito · November 3rd, 2007, 09:44 PM

I just wish they come out with denser tape technology that allow faster transfer rate, you can back up and retrieve the footage faster on a tape.

I heard about Japanese company developed a lot denser tape technology, so I'm hoping they will make AIT version using that technology. I remember it is multitimes denser.

TingSern Wong · November 3rd, 2007, 09:56 PM

There are tape drives and media available today that already exceeds the capability of the PC or Mac bus capacity.

SDLT-4 is 800GB per cartridge (native) and has a transfer speed of 300MB/sec. Fast enough, right?

Although the version for video is different. SDLT-600A is specifically meant for video (MXF aware).

320GB per cartridge - and interfaces via 1GBit Ethernet port.

Kaku Ito · January 22nd, 2008, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TingSern Wong

There are tape drives and media available today that already exceeds the capability of the PC or Mac bus capacity.

SDLT-4 is 800GB per cartridge (native) and has a transfer speed of 300MB/sec. Fast enough, right?

Although the version for video is different. SDLT-600A is specifically meant for video (MXF aware).

320GB per cartridge - and interfaces via 1GBit Ethernet port.

That sounds pretty good. I find it I usually use up about 300GB using two cams for concerts.

TingSern Wong · January 22nd, 2008, 08:29 PM

Kaku,

The sad part about this - SDLT-600A is only available in the US. It is not available in Europe or Asia right now. I have no idea when it will be made available to us. I checked with Quantum dealers - and every single one all throw up their hands ....

Pablo Lozano · January 23rd, 2008, 03:37 AM

I will have my HPX500 in two weeks and I am bit worry about the storage best way.
But my question is once you have finished the documentary, for example, why you dont transfer to a DVCPROHD tapes the finnal product like always? May be the rest of the material can be storaged in Hard discs, or whatever, and the risk to loss that is not so important.
Probably it is something I lost in the way to understand wverything.
Thanks
Pablo

TingSern Wong · January 23rd, 2008, 03:48 AM

DVCPRO HD tape drives cost US$25,000. Way too expensive. Besides, why record on DVCPRO HD tapes - which is analog (somebody please correct me if I am wrong) ...

Easier to backup the digital data on computer grade media (like SDLT tapes) or even removable Hard-disks (like some people have suggested).

The Quantum SDLT-600A will be the ideal backup mechanism for MXF format - which is what P2 recording is based on.

Pablo Lozano · January 23rd, 2008, 05:30 AM

I think everything depends of which kind of job you do. You are doing 4 or 5 documentaries a year or you are doing ENG production to TV and recording every day. I am from the first group so for me the SDLT 600 A way is not so cheap (more than 5000 $) and the tapes it needs Super DLTtape II (124$) for 300G are not either cheap.
It is true that a DVCPRO HD record machine is expensive, but if you are not doing many many productions a year, you dont need to buy it, just go and rent.

On the other hand DVCPRO HD tapes are not analogical are digital

My question is Can you transfer your finnal product from the NLE to DVCPRO HD tape? Can you transfer to another tapes and formats like HDCAM?

Thanks

TingSern Wong · January 23rd, 2008, 10:00 AM

Transferring from NLE to DVCPRO HD tape deck? Of course you can. You can output as Firewire or SDI - that will be best option. Pure digital to record on digital. Or you can output via component output and let the deck digitise the output into DVCPROHD tape.

If you can rent a DVCPRO HD tape deck, why not rent a Quantum SDLT-600A tape drive then? I am sure the rental will be cheaper than a DVCPRO HD tape deck.

I am doing P2 with MXF - and the Quantum is the best option. Everything is preserved in the 'Computer' domain. I can recall any clip down to the frame level without having to do a capture (which I will have to if I output it on DVCPRO HD tapes). That's the beauty of using the SDLT-600A ... provided Quantum makes it available for Europe and Asia.

Pablo Lozano · January 23rd, 2008, 10:49 AM

Thanks Tingsern. I don´t know if it will be so easy to find a Quantum SDLT-600A for rent, at least in Spain but I will have in mind

Ozzie Alfonso · January 23rd, 2008, 12:49 PM

One thing to keep in mind when backing up on DVCPRO tape is that the native resolution of the P2 card won't work. 1080p is not possible, the best you can do is 720p. I understand you refer, not to backing up as you record, but transferring later. My experience has been only with feeding via
FireWire a DVCPRO-HD tape deck as we recorded on the P2. I don't know if the same problem pops up when dubbing to tape after post.

TingSern Wong · January 23rd, 2008, 10:55 PM

Pablo,

I will be pleasantly surprised if you can find that SDLT-600A drive in Europe. I checked with Quantum - they told me that only USA has it (officially).

Ozzie,

Will that problem still be there if I feed it HD-SDI or component analog input?

Ozzie Alfonso · January 24th, 2008, 12:42 AM

Our feed was HD-SDI and not analog.

Brian Sargent · January 25th, 2008, 09:11 PM

in this subject, you should follow the goings on over here:

http://www.amianet.org/

October 13th, 2007, 12:17 AM	#31
Ozzie Alfonso Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: New York, NY Posts: 355	This is a most interesting thread. I haven't been around for a while, but I have an HD gig coming up in November - my first. We will most probably be using P2, and suddenly, how to hand the raw material to the client, is a huge concern. Since the camera and P2 cards are not mine, it is imperative I transfer them to a hard drive right in the studio, and make a backup on our own hard drive for safety. I have been around since 2" quad tapes and seen all types of tapes eventually begin to shed, clog heads, and, as the dropouts become excessive, the priceless material in those 2", 1", 3/4", 1/2" tapes is gradually rendered useless. This is true of analog as well as digital recordings. Now we are faced with a really neat recording medium that MUST be dumped off immediately - but to what? As I mentioned, I am very weary of tape; I have also had nightmares with drives that crash, bad blocks, missing sectors, corrupt FAT, will not boot, whatever. Even removable media - CDs, DVDs, Blue Ray, HD-DVD, can meet up with disaster - but so far I am a tad more comfortable with some removable media than I am with drives and tapes. The problem m, as I see it, is that there are no really efficient and practical removable media available that I know of. If there are, please point me in the right direction. Most of the work I did in the early 1970s has long been transferred quite a number of times with the resulting picture degradation, or destroyed…forever. Many a Bert and Ernie routine (I began at Sesame Street) have been lost, or at best, they are no longer of broadcast quality. __________________ *Ozzie Alfonso* www.ozziealfonso.com Last edited by Ozzie Alfonso; October 13th, 2007 at 11:40 AM. Reason: grammar

January 23rd, 2008, 12:49 PM	#42
Ozzie Alfonso Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: New York, NY Posts: 355	One thing to keep in mind when backing up on DVCPRO tape is that the native resolution of the P2 card won't work. 1080p is not possible, the best you can do is 720p. I understand you refer, not to backing up as you record, but transferring later. My experience has been only with feeding via FireWire a DVCPRO-HD tape deck as we recorded on the P2. I don't know if the same problem pops up when dubbing to tape after post. __________________ *Ozzie Alfonso* www.ozziealfonso.com

January 24th, 2008, 12:42 AM	#44
Ozzie Alfonso Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: New York, NY Posts: 355	Our feed was HD-SDI and not analog. __________________ *Ozzie Alfonso* www.ozziealfonso.com

January 25th, 2008, 09:11 PM	#45
Brian Sargent Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 69	If you're really truly interested in this subject, you should follow the goings on over here: http://www.amianet.org/

November 3rd, 2007, 09:14 PM	#32
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	I wondered why everybody here is so weary of tapes? We have been backing up data from enterprises onto tapes for years now. If tapes are so bad, every Fortune 500 companies data will be gone now. We should be looking at using computer grade data tapes and mechanisms to backup P2 data (remember, with P2 data - we are now talking about bits and bytes - not analog video or audio anymore). We have tapes (kept in conditioned environments - optimal temperature and humidity) that are already more than 10 years old - and data can still be reliably retrieved from them.

November 3rd, 2007, 09:44 PM	#33
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	I just wish they come out with denser tape technology that allow faster transfer rate, you can back up and retrieve the footage faster on a tape. I heard about Japanese company developed a lot denser tape technology, so I'm hoping they will make AIT version using that technology. I remember it is multitimes denser.

November 3rd, 2007, 09:56 PM	#34
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	There are tape drives and media available today that already exceeds the capability of the PC or Mac bus capacity. SDLT-4 is 800GB per cartridge (native) and has a transfer speed of 300MB/sec. Fast enough, right? Although the version for video is different. SDLT-600A is specifically meant for video (MXF aware). 320GB per cartridge - and interfaces via 1GBit Ethernet port.

January 22nd, 2008, 08:29 PM	#36
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Kaku, The sad part about this - SDLT-600A is only available in the US. It is not available in Europe or Asia right now. I have no idea when it will be made available to us. I checked with Quantum dealers - and every single one all throw up their hands ....

January 23rd, 2008, 03:37 AM	#37
Pablo Lozano New Boot Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Zaragoza, Spain Posts: 23	I will have my HPX500 in two weeks and I am bit worry about the storage best way. But my question is once you have finished the documentary, for example, why you dont transfer to a DVCPROHD tapes the finnal product like always? May be the rest of the material can be storaged in Hard discs, or whatever, and the risk to loss that is not so important. Probably it is something I lost in the way to understand wverything. Thanks Pablo

January 23rd, 2008, 03:48 AM	#38
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	DVCPRO HD tape drives cost US$25,000. Way too expensive. Besides, why record on DVCPRO HD tapes - which is analog (somebody please correct me if I am wrong) ... Easier to backup the digital data on computer grade media (like SDLT tapes) or even removable Hard-disks (like some people have suggested). The Quantum SDLT-600A will be the ideal backup mechanism for MXF format - which is what P2 recording is based on.

January 23rd, 2008, 05:30 AM	#39
Pablo Lozano New Boot Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Zaragoza, Spain Posts: 23	I think everything depends of which kind of job you do. You are doing 4 or 5 documentaries a year or you are doing ENG production to TV and recording every day. I am from the first group so for me the SDLT 600 A way is not so cheap (more than 5000 $) and the tapes it needs Super DLTtape II (124$) for 300G are not either cheap. It is true that a DVCPRO HD record machine is expensive, but if you are not doing many many productions a year, you dont need to buy it, just go and rent. On the other hand DVCPRO HD tapes are not analogical are digital My question is Can you transfer your finnal product from the NLE to DVCPRO HD tape? Can you transfer to another tapes and formats like HDCAM? Thanks

January 23rd, 2008, 10:00 AM	#40
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Transferring from NLE to DVCPRO HD tape deck? Of course you can. You can output as Firewire or SDI - that will be best option. Pure digital to record on digital. Or you can output via component output and let the deck digitise the output into DVCPROHD tape. If you can rent a DVCPRO HD tape deck, why not rent a Quantum SDLT-600A tape drive then? I am sure the rental will be cheaper than a DVCPRO HD tape deck. I am doing P2 with MXF - and the Quantum is the best option. Everything is preserved in the 'Computer' domain. I can recall any clip down to the frame level without having to do a capture (which I will have to if I output it on DVCPRO HD tapes). That's the beauty of using the SDLT-600A ... provided Quantum makes it available for Europe and Asia.

January 23rd, 2008, 10:49 AM	#41
Pablo Lozano New Boot Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Zaragoza, Spain Posts: 23	Thanks Tingsern. I don´t know if it will be so easy to find a Quantum SDLT-600A for rent, at least in Spain but I will have in mind

January 23rd, 2008, 10:55 PM	#43
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Pablo, I will be pleasantly surprised if you can find that SDLT-600A drive in Europe. I checked with Quantum - they told me that only USA has it (officially). Ozzie, Will that problem still be there if I feed it HD-SDI or component analog input?