Answer this: If new broadcast deliverable standards demand Super35, what about MFT?

[Jack Zhang]

I think I'm pretty much down to a GH5s with a Speedbooster XL, or the A7sIII if it has 10bit HDMI. If the A7sIII still lacks 10bit HDMI, and still uses Micro HDMI, It would be the Speedbooster XL, a Tamron 24-35 for dramatic productions, and a stock 12-60 2.8-4 for Vlogging.

[Noa Put]

for Vlogging.

So the guy in the shop was right after all? ;)

[Cliff Totten]

OK,...this is completely unethical and I am NOT saying people should do this. In fact, I am saying "do not"........

However,...the image quality form the GH5 at 1600 ISO or below at 400Mbps will match the quality of any super35 sensor camera out there today. I mean it this way....There is no chance in Hell that if you shot wolves eating a dead bison at Yellow Stone and you shot it correctly with a GH5....that ANYBODY is going to say; "I dont know,...this does not look like a Super35 image sensor to me". This isn't going to happen! Not even the BEST trained eyes can tell a super35 image from an MFT image. (if shot correctly at 1600 ISO or lower.) This GH5 image at lower ISO's is spectacular and has been compared to RED and ARRI cameras in video all over the place. There are videos that compare it to the EVA-1 and some show the GH5 can be just as clean or even cleaner.

I can absolutely tell you as a 100% complete, absolute FACT that Discovery DOES take 8bit 4:2:0 footage and airs it. We also know the BBC has used the A7S-II 8bit bit for nature shots in low light and so does CNN for it's Wonder List series.

Look at sports. They often use tiny 2/3 sensor ENG cameras!

Ironically, all broadcasters are only capable of airing 8bit 4:2:0. It's funny how deliverables are so much higher than anything they can actually deliver themselves. Over the air, satellite and cable or only 8bit 4:2:0 in MPEG-II or H264 at 20Mbp/s or as low at 9Mbp/s in some cases by the time it hits your TV.

It is wrong to do this but if you shot something good on a GH5 and "said" you used an EVA-1...nobody will ever challenge it.

Again,...do NOT do this. I'm not saying anyone should.


FYI....George Lucas shot huge budget Star Wars movies (prequels) on Sony 1440x1080 cameras with sensors much SMALLER than Micro 4/3 on cameras that were WAY,...and I mean WAAAAAY less sophisticated than the GH5. The GH5's processing power is much more powerful than George's Lucas' Sony F900's...by orders of magnitude!

Wasn't the highest grossing movie in Hollywood history, "Avatar" shot on tiny 2/3 inch sensors? The BBC can't broadcast "Avatar" because it wasn't shot on cameras that meet their standards?

CT

[Kevin Lau]

This is what I meant in another one of my replies (about the 2/3" 4K cameras) about how companies fret too much about WHAT equipment you're using rather than what you can DO with the equipment. However I just flipped through a couple published technical specifications from some big names and they spell out pretty clearly that if you expect to get paid for the work or otherwise receive financial backing for the project - you meet their approved equipment specs. The only exception is if you can explain that lives will be endangered while using the prescribed equipment in a given scenario, then they might allow non-approved devices (such as action cameras). The consequence is that it affects what equipment models people will purchase, and therefore what manufacturers will focus on developing.

On the other hand in business: there's specification, and then there's what actually gets implemented, and sometimes they're not always the same. i.e. This is reserving their rights to pull the 'technical specification' card at any time to reject something, even if it may actually be for other reasons.

[Cliff Totten]

No doubt, all media companies have their standards for deliverables. Discovery has it's Gold, Silver and Bronz standards. I can only tell you that they ABSOLUTELY will allow you to go outside of it. You have to know who you are dealing with at the company too. If you captured something SPECTACULAR like a shark jumping or a lion fighting a crocodile or Northern Lights or anything that is really compelling or causes people to say "WOW!" and you did it in 8bit 4:2:0?....trust me, you are FINE!

In these cases, the content is WAY more important than the spec.

They just dont want entire production are not done that way.

[Noa Put]

Do you think Discovery would have an issue with the "toy effect" or "fantasy" filter setting on my gh5? I kinda like those presets, I could always say it was shot on a Alexa just to clear some doubt and I have some killer footage from my cat eating a dead mouse.

[Cliff Totten]

If your cat was eating that dead mouse and it suddenly became alive again and attacked your cat, killed it and swallowed your entire cat?....if you got that with your old flip phone camera....Discovery would take it and air it! The more amazing it is, the higher the chance that it will get aired no matter how bad the quality its. Discovery's own standards do allow for certain percentages to be non-standard and still make it to air. Like I said, the BBC used the A7S and so did CNN.

Did you know the original episodes of "Deadliest Catch" were shot on Sony 8bit, 1440x1080 HDV camcorders? The boats would leave the docks with 6-8 camcorders on board and only 3 or 4 would make it undamaged. They don't meet the broadcast standards but they were considered "disposable" cameras and that is why they used them.

Anyway,...yes, the standard is what they demand. but, if you have something incredible you shot on a GH5, they absolutely WILL take it if it's good.

That's all I'm trying to say. And, I do NOT advocate lying about it because absolutely nobody will be able to tell the difference! No way.

[Christopher Young]

Cliff I think you will find they were EX1s which were a full 1920 x 1080. The "Alaska the Last Frontier" series is being shot on Canon XF 300 series in 1920 x 1080i MPEG-2 50-mbit 60i.

As you say the story is where it is at. If you had the leader of your country stretched out in the gutter, out like a light with a bottle of booze in his hand and you had shot it on a piece of string you would be $$$s in the bank.

Did you see Black Swan by Darren Aronofsky. It was shot on ARRI Super 16 using Fuji film... plus some Canon DSLRs. A beautiful production.

BLACK SWAN | Official Trailer | FOX Searchlight - YouTube

Technically not good enough for Netflix or Discovery delivery. Give me break many would say!

I understand standards, BBC's specifically as that's where I trained. Believe you me if it's good it will get used regardless of what the tech standards are. In most cases common sense will rule when a judgement call has to be made. If it is a commissioned program then that is a different situation. You are are granted the commission with all the tech specs ironed out beforehand. If you accepted the commission on the basis of S35 or 2/3" acquisition then that is what you are expected to shoot on. Today you would not get anything commissioned unless it was S35 or three chip 2/3" with a minimum of 50-mbit in interlace or 100-mbit in progressive. Exceptions can and are made but the basis of most commissioned work is based on the two criteria outlined above. In the bulk of cases you also have to supply the original camera media and or files.

Chris Young

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

It is wrong to do this but if you shot something good on a GH5 and "said" you used an EVA-1...nobody will ever challenge it.

Again,...do NOT do this. I'm not saying anyone should.

Originally Posted by Christopher Young

In the bulk of cases you also have to supply the original camera media and or files.

Oops, there goes your chance in lying about what camera you used :) It's good that some "facts" are set straight again now and then.

[Cliff Totten]

Originally Posted by Christopher Young

Cliff I think you will find they were EX1s which were a full 1920 x 1080. The "Alaska the Last Frontier" series is being shot on Canon XF 300 series in 1920 x 1080i MPEG-2 50-mbit 60i.

As you say the story is where it is at. If you had the leader of your country stretched out in the gutter, out like a light with a bottle of booze in his hand and you had shot it on a piece of string you would be $$$s in the bank.

Did you see Black Swan by Darren Aronofsky. It was shot on ARRI Super 16 using Fuji film... plus some Canon DSLRs. A beautiful production.

BLACK SWAN | Official Trailer | FOX Searchlight - YouTube

Technically not good enough for Netflix or Discovery delivery. Give me break many would say!

I understand standards, BBC's specifically as that's where I trained. Believe you me if it's good it will get used regardless of what the tech standards are. In most cases common sense will rule when a judgement call has to be made. If it is a commissioned program then that is a different situation. You are are granted the commission with all the tech specs ironed out beforehand. If you accepted the commission on the basis of S35 or 2/3" acquisition then that is what you are expected to shoot on. Today you would not get anything commissioned unless it was S35 or three chip 2/3" with a minimum of 50-mbit in interlace or 100-mbit in progressive. Exceptions can and are made but the basis of most commissioned work is based on the two criteria outlined above. In the bulk of cases you also have to supply the original camera media and or files.

Chris Young

Oh, they were HDV alright. How is this for "deliverables"? We, in fact had crews onboard the boats "delivering" their dailies by sealing HDV tapes into floating plastic throw-overs being tossed straight into the ocean! We then had crews waiting in small boats immediately to snatch them up and race the tapes back to shore!

Yes, other cameras were used in different seasons too but lemme tell you, that show was a camera grave yard in the first seasons!

On "actual" media straight from camera the being delivered? No, we have TONS of old content down the hall from vendors that sent deliverables on Digi SR tapes and even USB hard drives. Discovery also buys fully edited shows from vendors too and of course, we reversion them also. Not everything is 100% done in-house. So it's a very wide range of stuff.

OMG...I haven't thought about those days in a loooong time!

And yes, you guys are right, "content" always wins over "specifications" every single time. They will never say "no" to any material that is really good....no matter what. The standards are guidelines or best practices and exactly what the company is asking from everybody. I'm only saying that those rules can be and are often broken, you just need to have a good reason to deliberately break them.

CT

[Jack Zhang]

Okay, sounds like I will start with a GH5s then, if Sony doesn't answer back with 10bit in the A7SIII

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

if Sony doesn't answer back with 10bit in the A7SIII

They won't.

[Cary Knoop]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

They won't.

They might add 10 bit, actually I think it is likely they will.

We will find out in September.

[Cliff Totten]

My guess;

In order for the A7S-III to have 10bit internal recording, Sony will need move the A7S-III out of XAVC-S and give it full XAVC 10bit. (this uses an .mxf wrapper today)

If Alpha gives the A7S-III full XDCAM 10bit CODEC, this will CERTAINLY piss off the XDCAM Pro division! They probably will protest the Hell out of that in Sony management meetings..lol . Seeing an Alpha camera with an incredible image sensor getting 10bit sampling would drive them NUTS!

I think in order to keep the Sony eco-system "balance" and keep everybody happy, Sony will keep the A7S-III with the usual XAVC-S 8bit 4:2:0 CODEC. I think they WILL lift the 29 minute recording limit and WILL allow 10bit HDMI output for external recording only. This will probably keep all the Sony marketing experts happy and they will not lose too much sleep if it is done this way.

I'm expecting the A7S-III to be a phenomenal performer in a big rig situation with a Shogun Inferno.

I think Sony will still clock the sensor readout pretty show though for these reasons:

1.) Clocking it slow will help control heat as we know that faster scan speeds make hotter and noisier sensors.
2.) Keeping a high degree of rolling shutter will keep the XDACM managers very happy.

I think that people don't realize just how much of a roll that Sony internal "politics" plays in the features that each camera is allowed to have.

We might find out this Sunday at Sony's NAB press meeting???

CT

[Cary Knoop]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

I'm expecting the A7S-III to be a phenomenal performer in a big rig situation with a Shogun Inferno.

Not if it is 8 bit.

They should read the memo: the 10 bit HDR recording era has started.