GH5 for video documentaries: some questions please.

Ron Evans · December 30th, 2017, 09:56 AM

Yes you are paying for 50/60P UHD and the extra processing that takes with cooling etc not needed for HD or UHD30P.

In the video you can also see that the GX10 has a wider field of view too. We have no idea what the auto focus was set for on either camera as they both have many options and that goes for the exposure settings too. I do not think either are point and shoot cameras so need to be set up properly to get the best out of either of them. Putting them side by side in auto is a nice test but far from a useful comparison as to capabilities.

The GX10 may be expensive but the only one that does 50/60P UHD at anywhere near the price. A GH5 with lens will be more expensive. A better camera for sure but also has it difficulties with auto focus etc !!!

Adriano Moroni · January 1st, 2018, 05:22 PM

Out of curiosity I need to ask some questions:
1) If I had to buy the new Sony a7RIII and if I don't make interviews, iis it sufficient that mic to record the daily life sound?
2) If I need a mic and a light on the camera, what should I do? Do I have to add a bracket on it?
It would be a big inconvenience.

Pete Cofrancesco · January 1st, 2018, 07:06 PM

That isn’t a camera you would want. The best way to answer all your questions is go out and rent or borrow any dslr or mirrorless for a week. If you still like filming with one then come back and talk.

Bryan Worsley · January 1st, 2018, 09:01 PM

If you've got that kind of budget (not accounting for lenses), 4K/50p is a must, and you don't need log gamma profiles for stylized/filmic grading (you didn't mention it as a priority, so I'm assuming not) I'd seriously look at the Canon GX10, as Ron has been intimating. Not much out there in terms of raw video samples available for download (for the GX10 or AX700) but most big camera stores are happy to let you record your own if you bring an SD card. Probably the best way to reach a conclusion as to which has the better quality for your needs. Personally I think the videos on your YouTube channel look great.

As for audio. I don't know how the built-in mic on the GX10 compares with the AX100/700. If it's anything like the Canon HF-G40 (which I suspect it is) it will certainly be better than any dslr/mirrorless but yes, for decent quality audio (befitting your video) you will really need to consider an external mic. For recording 'daily life sounds' you couldn't go wrong with a Rode Stereo Videomic Pro (with the Rycote lyre suspension). On the GX10 you'd have the option of mounting on the forward positioned cold shoe or the rear positioned mini-advanced hot shoe using an adapter. On the AX100/700, you only have the one multi-interface shoe and always need an adapter for third-party accessories.

To manage an external mic and on-camera video light, yes you would really need to add a bracket of sorts, whatever camera you choose. For mounting an LED panel and RSVMP on my HF-G30 I use a (Rycote) shoe extension bar attached transversely to the cold shoe mount. For hand-held shooting, it's just manageable for short periods. The GX10 is a bit larger and heavier than the HF-G30/40 though. Upgrading to the XF-400/405 would give you that detachable handle, professional audio inputs and one cold shoe, but sacrifice the mini advanced hot shoe.

Anyhow, just my opinion, if I were in your shoes.

How have you been managing audio and on-board lighting (as needed) on the AX100 until now ?

P.S. Perusing the user manual I'm surprised to see that Canon omitted Highlight Priority mode on the GX10. I wonder why ? When I checked out the HF-G40 last year I wasn't that enamored with the Wide DR 'look' - too much noise in the shadows and softening of fine detail for my taste - maybe it's improved on the GX10 but it's hard to tell from that YouTube video. Highlight Priority mode though looked like it could be very useful in high contrast situations. No Cinema (gamma) Mode either, but they added a Monochrome 'look'. So, not much latitude there for stylized grading, but for documentary work and travelogues, do you really need that ?

Sorry to digress from the original thread topic.

Adriano Moroni · January 2nd, 2018, 01:33 AM

Ron gave me very good suggestions. I searched info about Canon GX10 and I noticed it is a good camera. It has many better options than my Sony AX100, but its image quality is not better than AX100. I read that someone bought it and regretted the poor quality of the GX10. For that reason I'm considering the Sony a7RIII . But I am still not convinced in the purchase it because it is not easy to use it. But I NEED A BETTER IMAGE QUALITY THAN AX100. I have also considered much more expensive, bigger and heavy cameras but I'm thinking they aren't the right cameras for me because I will travel alone and I need light cameras. It is hard for my to test GX10 in some stores for now.
At this point I will stay at the window waiting for a better videocamera.

Sony AX 100 has a good mic. I don't have to add any external mic. to record 'daily life sounds'. I am satisfied with it. With that mic. I have only one problem: sometime the wind that disturbs the sound.

Ron Evans · January 2nd, 2018, 09:10 AM

Can you define better image quality for us ? Do you mean resolution, sharpness, colour. I expect it would mean more work for you in shooting and editing to get anything substantially better than the AX100. The obvious way is to shoot with a log curve and then grade in post. More confusing to shoot correctly ( certainly not a quick point and shoot approach as you would need to be careful with exposure) and then a lot of work to get the effect you want in editing/grading.

The new Sony cameras allow you to shoot in log. However if you expect to auto shoot and then view output they will likely all perform similar to your AX100. I do not think you will find a camera that automatically shoots better video than the AX100 in the way you shoot. You may get the results you want by learning to grade the video you already get from the AX100. I know you edit with EDIUS as do myself but to really grade it has limitations compared to Blackmagic Resolve which could totally change the look of your videos. $299 for the full Studio version of Resolve is a lot less than a new camera !!!

Adriano Moroni · January 2nd, 2018, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

Can you define better image quality for us ?

Yes, I mean resolution, sharpness, colour, etc. all those things that let you to watch a better video. I already know your answer. jejeeje I have to know and configure better my AX100. You are prefectly right.
I will do it surely.
Much time ago (maybe you don't remember), you sugegst me to buy Sony DSC-HX20V camera. I will thank you forever for that advice. I bought it and I went to Sicily. I used that camera is auto mode only and I made a very good video, not for the video content (I was with my friends on holiday) but for the image quality it gave me. With my AX100 I never got a such very good image quality in 4K. For that reason I was thinking to buy an even better camera than Sony DSC-HX20V. I like a lot those colours. But you take me in the real world and you are right again!!

Ron Evans · January 2nd, 2018, 12:34 PM

The AX100 for you in PAL will only shoot in 25P UHD so if you prefer a faster frame rate ( as I do ) then it will not look as good to you. If that is your issue then either the GX10, XF400 or moving to a GH5 is your answer as none of the smaller Sony's shoot in 50/60P UHD and why I moved to the GH5. Would love the Sony FS7 the first in the Sony line to shoot UHD 50/60P other than the old AX1 or Z100 ( that I think use the same sensor as in the HX20/30V !!! ) but the FS7 is just too expensive.

The HX20V I recall has a sharpened image and you could sharpen up your videos in EDIUS. You might want to try sharpen filter at about 15 and see what you think. It will add a little contrast as well as sharpen the edges. Too much and it will look fake !!! Add some chroma ( about 3 ) in the colour filter and the image should pop a little more.

Focus in UHD is very critical and the slightest out of focus is very clear. Takes more time to ensure the shot is in focus when shooting UHD.

Bryan Worsley · January 2nd, 2018, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni

Sony AX 100 has a good mic. I don't have to add any external mic. to record 'daily life sounds'. I am satisfied with it. With that mic. I have only one problem: sometime the wind that disturbs the sound.

If you are happy with the built-in mic, you could get one of these to combat wind noise:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/315567-REG/Rycote_055401_Gustbuster_Camcorder_Windjammer.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

$299 for the full Studio version of Resolve is a lot less than a new camera !!!

And the free version for even less than that ! Only thing if Adriano did go for a Pana GH5 is that he'd need the Studio version to import native 4K 10-bit 422 clips. No problem importing Sony XAVC/S clips with the free version.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

The AX100 for you in PAL will only shoot in 25P UHD so if you prefer a faster frame rate ( as I do ) then it will not look as good to you.

I don't own a 4K capable camera, so can't really comment further. I just wonder though if Adriano were shooting 4K/30p on an AX100 whether he would have such a compelling desire for 4K/50p. Of course, it's not going to be as fluid as 50p/60p, but from what I've seen the cadence of 4K/30p on the AX100 copes well with moving subjects shot from static positions and slow pans. Take these two videos put up by Mark Rosenzweig a couple of years back:

As always with Mark's excellent showcase videos, the original 4K footage is there for download. I wonder if he has plans to do a series on the Canon GX10 at some point - once he's done with the Z Camera E1 ?

Ron Evans · January 2nd, 2018, 04:13 PM

Depends what ones eyes are sensitive to . I can tell the difference with slow frames rates immediately and prefer the smoother flow of 60P. I think that there is also some data that shows that with UHD HDR 120fps may be a better solution too specially for fast movement. I think he is shooting UHD25P on his AX100. I have an AX100 and AX53 as well as my GH5, had a FDR-AX1 that shot UHD 60P too. To me there is a big difference to the point I only use the AX100 and AX53 as HD cameras at 60P.

Resolve Studio also enables better use of any GPU's in the system and playback is considerably improved. Has a lot of other features not in the free version too. Definitely worth the price.

Adriano Moroni · January 2nd, 2018, 04:49 PM

Unfortunately Sony AX100 doesn't have neither 4K/30p but only 4K/25p. ;)

Bryan, unfortunately AX100 has the mic. on it and not in front of it.

Mark Rosenzweig · January 2nd, 2018, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni

Unfortunately Sony AX100 doesn't have neither 4K/30p but only 4K/25p. ;)

1. The videos posted just above were shot on the AX100 in UHD 30P, not 25P.

2. 25P is not a standard in the US. There are no camcorders sold in the US which can only shoot 25P if they offer 25P at all.

3. I have shot UHD 30P, 60P and even 120P (my FS3700+Shogun Inferno). I fail to see that significant a difference in motion played at normal speed. I can see 24p affects movement unnaturally (the film look).

I think the main advantage of 60P and 120P is to make slow motion clips. I think slow motion clips are very nice, when used sparingly in a video. Noa has offered some nice slo-mo examples from 60P video.

Ron Evans · January 2nd, 2018, 07:33 PM

If you see the film look of 24P then 25P is very close so will be significant to the look of 50P. Adriano is in Italy so AX100 there is PAL frame rates.

Bryan Worsley · January 2nd, 2018, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni

Unfortunately Sony AX100 doesn't have neither 4K/30p but only 4K/25p. ;)

I appreciate that, but you could always consider changing your European (PAL) model for a North American (NTSC) model, especially if you are shooting for web distribution only. Just a thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni

Bryan, unfortunately AX100 has the mic. on it and not in front of it.

That particular product image shows just one configuration. You can attach it any way you like with the adjustable straps as long as the 'windjammer' pad is secured snugly over the entire microphone grille:

https://www.dvestore.com/rycote-055401-gustbuster/

And I think it probably would fit over the AX100 mic.

Bryan Worsley · January 2nd, 2018, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Rosenzweig

1. The videos posted just above were shot on the AX100 in UHD 30P, not 25P

And in Shutter Priority mode at 1/60sec (at least the Baseball one) according to your Comment under the video.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Worsley

As always with Mark's excellent showcase videos, the original 4K footage is there for download. I wonder if he has plans to do a series on the Canon GX10 at some point - once he's done with the Z Camera E1 ?

Any thoughts on that Marc ? I'd like to check out the GX10 myself but none of the camera stores in my locale have it in stock as yet.

December 30th, 2017, 09:56 AM	#46
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: GH5 for video documentaries: some questions please. Yes you are paying for 50/60P UHD and the extra processing that takes with cooling etc not needed for HD or UHD30P. In the video you can also see that the GX10 has a wider field of view too. We have no idea what the auto focus was set for on either camera as they both have many options and that goes for the exposure settings too. I do not think either are point and shoot cameras so need to be set up properly to get the best out of either of them. Putting them side by side in auto is a nice test but far from a useful comparison as to capabilities. The GX10 may be expensive but the only one that does 50/60P UHD at anywhere near the price. A GH5 with lens will be more expensive. A better camera for sure but also has it difficulties with auto focus etc !!!

January 1st, 2018, 05:22 PM	#47
Adriano Moroni Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Rome Italy Posts: 676	Re: GH5 for video documentaries: some questions please. Out of curiosity I need to ask some questions: 1) If I had to buy the new Sony a7RIII and if I don't make interviews, iis it sufficient that mic to record the daily life sound? 2) If I need a mic and a light on the camera, what should I do? Do I have to add a bracket on it? It would be a big inconvenience. __________________ A lonesome traveler looking for lost tribes around the world: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdv...DrZCaaw/videos

January 1st, 2018, 07:06 PM	#48
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: GH5 for video documentaries: some questions please. That isn’t a camera you would want. The best way to answer all your questions is go out and rent or borrow any dslr or mirrorless for a week. If you still like filming with one then come back and talk.

January 1st, 2018, 09:01 PM	#49
Bryan Worsley Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 439	Re: GH5 for video documentaries: some questions please. If you've got that kind of budget (not accounting for lenses), 4K/50p is a must, and you don't need log gamma profiles for stylized/filmic grading (you didn't mention it as a priority, so I'm assuming not) I'd seriously look at the Canon GX10, as Ron has been intimating. Not much out there in terms of raw video samples available for download (for the GX10 or AX700) but most big camera stores are happy to let you record your own if you bring an SD card. Probably the best way to reach a conclusion as to which has the better quality for your needs. Personally I think the videos on your YouTube channel look great. As for audio. I don't know how the built-in mic on the GX10 compares with the AX100/700. If it's anything like the Canon HF-G40 (which I suspect it is) it will certainly be better than any dslr/mirrorless but yes, for decent quality audio (befitting your video) you will really need to consider an external mic. For recording 'daily life sounds' you couldn't go wrong with a Rode Stereo Videomic Pro (with the Rycote lyre suspension). On the GX10 you'd have the option of mounting on the forward positioned cold shoe or the rear positioned mini-advanced hot shoe using an adapter. On the AX100/700, you only have the one multi-interface shoe and always need an adapter for third-party accessories. To manage an external mic and on-camera video light, yes you would really need to add a bracket of sorts, whatever camera you choose. For mounting an LED panel and RSVMP on my HF-G30 I use a (Rycote) shoe extension bar attached transversely to the cold shoe mount. For hand-held shooting, it's just manageable for short periods. The GX10 is a bit larger and heavier than the HF-G30/40 though. Upgrading to the XF-400/405 would give you that detachable handle, professional audio inputs and one cold shoe, but sacrifice the mini advanced hot shoe. Anyhow, just my opinion, if I were in your shoes. How have you been managing audio and on-board lighting (as needed) on the AX100 until now ? P.S. Perusing the user manual I'm surprised to see that Canon omitted Highlight Priority mode on the GX10. I wonder why ? When I checked out the HF-G40 last year I wasn't that enamored with the Wide DR 'look' - too much noise in the shadows and softening of fine detail for my taste - maybe it's improved on the GX10 but it's hard to tell from that YouTube video. Highlight Priority mode though looked like it could be very useful in high contrast situations. No Cinema (gamma) Mode either, but they added a Monochrome 'look'. So, not much latitude there for stylized grading, but for documentary work and travelogues, do you really need that ? Sorry to digress from the original thread topic. Last edited by Bryan Worsley; January 1st, 2018 at 11:39 PM.

January 2nd, 2018, 01:33 AM	#50
Adriano Moroni Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Rome Italy Posts: 676	Re: GH5 for video documentaries: some questions please. Ron gave me very good suggestions. I searched info about Canon GX10 and I noticed it is a good camera. It has many better options than my Sony AX100, but its image quality is not better than AX100. I read that someone bought it and regretted the poor quality of the GX10. For that reason I'm considering the Sony a7RIII . But I am still not convinced in the purchase it because it is not easy to use it. But I NEED A BETTER IMAGE QUALITY THAN AX100. I have also considered much more expensive, bigger and heavy cameras but I'm thinking they aren't the right cameras for me because I will travel alone and I need light cameras. It is hard for my to test GX10 in some stores for now. At this point I will stay at the window waiting for a better videocamera. Sony AX 100 has a good mic. I don't have to add any external mic. to record 'daily life sounds'. I am satisfied with it. With that mic. I have only one problem: sometime the wind that disturbs the sound. __________________ A lonesome traveler looking for lost tribes around the world: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdv...DrZCaaw/videos Last edited by Adriano Moroni; January 2nd, 2018 at 04:08 AM.

January 2nd, 2018, 09:10 AM	#51
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: GH5 for video documentaries: some questions please. Can you define better image quality for us ? Do you mean resolution, sharpness, colour. I expect it would mean more work for you in shooting and editing to get anything substantially better than the AX100. The obvious way is to shoot with a log curve and then grade in post. More confusing to shoot correctly ( certainly not a quick point and shoot approach as you would need to be careful with exposure) and then a lot of work to get the effect you want in editing/grading. The new Sony cameras allow you to shoot in log. However if you expect to auto shoot and then view output they will likely all perform similar to your AX100. I do not think you will find a camera that automatically shoots better video than the AX100 in the way you shoot. You may get the results you want by learning to grade the video you already get from the AX100. I know you edit with EDIUS as do myself but to really grade it has limitations compared to Blackmagic Resolve which could totally change the look of your videos. $299 for the full Studio version of Resolve is a lot less than a new camera !!!

January 2nd, 2018, 12:34 PM	#53
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: GH5 for video documentaries: some questions please. The AX100 for you in PAL will only shoot in 25P UHD so if you prefer a faster frame rate ( as I do ) then it will not look as good to you. If that is your issue then either the GX10, XF400 or moving to a GH5 is your answer as none of the smaller Sony's shoot in 50/60P UHD and why I moved to the GH5. Would love the Sony FS7 the first in the Sony line to shoot UHD 50/60P other than the old AX1 or Z100 ( that I think use the same sensor as in the HX20/30V !!! ) but the FS7 is just too expensive. The HX20V I recall has a sharpened image and you could sharpen up your videos in EDIUS. You might want to try sharpen filter at about 15 and see what you think. It will add a little contrast as well as sharpen the edges. Too much and it will look fake !!! Add some chroma ( about 3 ) in the colour filter and the image should pop a little more. Focus in UHD is very critical and the slightest out of focus is very clear. Takes more time to ensure the shot is in focus when shooting UHD.

January 2nd, 2018, 04:13 PM	#55
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: GH5 for video documentaries: some questions please. Depends what ones eyes are sensitive to . I can tell the difference with slow frames rates immediately and prefer the smoother flow of 60P. I think that there is also some data that shows that with UHD HDR 120fps may be a better solution too specially for fast movement. I think he is shooting UHD25P on his AX100. I have an AX100 and AX53 as well as my GH5, had a FDR-AX1 that shot UHD 60P too. To me there is a big difference to the point I only use the AX100 and AX53 as HD cameras at 60P. Resolve Studio also enables better use of any GPU's in the system and playback is considerably improved. Has a lot of other features not in the free version too. Definitely worth the price.

January 2nd, 2018, 04:49 PM	#56
Adriano Moroni Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Rome Italy Posts: 676	Re: GH5 for video documentaries: some questions please. Unfortunately Sony AX100 doesn't have neither 4K/30p but only 4K/25p. ;) Bryan, unfortunately AX100 has the mic. on it and not in front of it. __________________ A lonesome traveler looking for lost tribes around the world: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdv...DrZCaaw/videos

January 2nd, 2018, 07:33 PM	#58
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: GH5 for video documentaries: some questions please. If you see the film look of 24P then 25P is very close so will be significant to the look of 50P. Adriano is in Italy so AX100 there is PAL frame rates.