Sell my GH2 for 5D mkiii or change lenses or what?

Jeff Harper · March 19th, 2012, 07:33 AM

Bruce, good points all, except I feel differently about 24p. I don't like it because it's difficult to use during event shooting and because I haven't mastered it, but as used by top pros it is stunning.

When used by someone with the proper skills that actually understands it and who know how to shoot properly, it offers very good results that are near impossible to duplicate otherwise.

More importantly, 24p is being used more and more, not less, and the results by high-end events people are absolutely stunning. So while it's true that is is "old", it is more than just a holdover, because it is still very a very desirable way of shooting for some.

I questioned the efficacy of 24p for years, but when I need a reminder of how awesome it can be, I visit Pacific Pictures website. Since they shoot primarily in 24p, it is a reminder to me that my issues with 24p are more a reflection of my lack of skills than a reflection of the format.

I see 24p as impractical for the average event person because most don't seem to know how to shoot with it. This is why I don't recommend it or use it much myself.

PACIFIC PICTURES | The Official Site | Discover a limitless cinematic experience | 800.677.7206

Kevin McRoberts · March 19th, 2012, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Janka

Good points, Kevin. My rig is definitely not center balanced over the shoulder. I'm not sure how that's even possible when you throw a monitor, Zoom, mics, lights, etc. onto the end of the thing. I'm not saying I'm not steady, but I'm a lot steadier with the 25mm than the 50mm, so IS would be handy. As far as the pros, they have much better (read: expensive) stabilizing rigs than my Jag35.

It doesn't necessarily take expense... just hang something equally heavy off the other end with some cheap eBay rod & block bits. Either a deadweight or a handy little battery and lens pouch can fit the bill.

Jeff Harper · March 19th, 2012, 08:05 AM

Kevin, I have wanted a shoulder rig for ages, but have avoided buying one for the very balance issue that you mention, I'm lazy I guess and didn't want the frustration that goes with fine tuning a new piece of gear and working it out.

I've looked at the spiderbraces and many others, the choices are overwhelming. I used to use a spiderbrace for my old PD150 ages ago, loved it, but the balance issue was a problem too, though for that camera it wasn't a huge deal.

Kevin, I run an XA10 and a the GH2s. Is there anything you recommend that might work out for both cameras? As my busy season approaches I wonder if it would be nice to get something this year.

William Hohauser · March 19th, 2012, 09:47 AM

A GH2 just isn't built for a shoulder rig although you can eventually rig something up but it's not going to be a streamlined video camera, just a clunky, weird looking conglomerate of accessories. I think this sort of fits into why 24p is hard to use at an event.

24p has had years of technique perfection by film professionals in controlled settings. The cameras these professionals use are not easy to toss around and get quick shots. There is a reason why old newsreels and pre-ENG TV news generally look terrible. Between the need for equipment that can be quickly deployed and the lack of set-up time generally tosses a fine tuned image. The GH2 can create film quality images but generally the set-ups I've seen to accomplish this are probably impossible to use at an event where filming is secondary to the event. The event is going on whether the camera is ready or not.

My experience is that 30p is satisfactory at events unless you can arrange for a lot of camera coverage to switch to when a shot starts to look strange due to 24p judder.

Jeff Harper · March 19th, 2012, 10:33 AM

I shot some very quick photos this morning with the 45mm F/1.8 for my friend of our cats. They are not amazing photos, but they are nice, shot in Program mode, quickly with no effort. I got about 40 decent photos in five minutes with no fiddling with focus or other settings. Just click click click and almost all of them came out great.

Most pleasing to me about the lens is the bokeh, it's smooth for a relatively cheap lens. In low light the DOF with a more open aperture is even better, of course.

The photos are downsized significantly but they still look fine and give a general idea. I've also attached a photo of a test tube shot at a clinic.

Patrick Janka · March 19th, 2012, 10:55 AM

Thanks for the shots, Jeff.

This is a live event I shot in 24p on a stationary XHA1 in the back, and a GH2 with the Canon FDn 50mm f/1.4 on my Jag35 shoulder rig: Todd Bogue - Live @ The Improv 02/08/12 - YouTube

All the up close shots were on the rig. I feel there's too much camera shake, but maybe it's just me. I feel IS would help a lot. However, the dillemma, once again, is that I'd be trading IS of the Lumix for a slower lens, which, is detrimental to me shooting in darker environments such as this one.

Jeff Harper · March 19th, 2012, 11:23 AM

Too much shake? The footage looks fine as is, some camera movement for those shots is good and give a live feel, it's desirable.

Your video is perfectly fine and looks awesome. The thing is with the Lumix 45mm F/1.8 you would get auto focus and would be less trouble, but for your work maybe you don't need it. Also at 45mm it would be 90mm instead of 100, and would be a touch easier to keep steady, but for follow focus it would be tough.

You held the camera very steady, I would personally not be concerned about it.

David Grinnell · March 19th, 2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Janka

Thanks for the shots, Jeff.

This is a live event I shot in 24p on a stationary XHA1 in the back, and a GH2 with the Canon FDn 50mm f/1.4 on my Jag35 shoulder rig: Todd Bogue - Live @ The Improv 02/08/12 - YouTube

All the up close shots were on the rig. I feel there's too much camera shake, but maybe it's just me. I feel IS would help a lot. However, the dillemma, once again, is that I'd be trading IS of the Lumix for a slower lens, which, is detrimental to me shooting in darker environments such as this one.

do you use any counterweights on the back of the rig? I have added one to my jag rig and its night and day... I also shoot with the FD glass you are using

Bruce Foreman · March 19th, 2012, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Bruce, good points all, except I feel differently about 24p. I don't like it because it's difficult to use during event shooting and because I haven't mastered it, but as used by top pros it is stunning.

It's a frame rate. Of and by itself it does nothing to affect the quality of a production. The progressive character makes a difference. What top pros do is stunning because of the many techniques they use to achieve their visuals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

I questioned the efficacy of 24p for years, but when I need a reminder of how awesome it can be, I visit Pacific Pictures website. Since they shoot primarily in 24p, it is a reminder to me that my issues with 24p are more a reflection of my lack of skills than a reflection of the format.

I've seen their work several times, that wedding in India is more than stunning and while they used 5D MkIIs and 7Ds they would have achieved essentially the same kind of result whatever they used. Seeing their work is a most inspiring feeling. But their productions would have essentially the same look at 25p or 30p.

Some people can see the "flicker" at 24fps (my old 8mm film gear used a frame rate of 18fps and I darn sure could see that), and some of them often leave movie theaters with headaches (my wife and daughter would!). Equipment in modern theaters that still show film projects each frame twice to get away from this, so what we have been seeing is actually 48fps. So the frame rate of and by itself has little or nothing to do with final quality, it's all the other factors, composition, color, exposure, framing, camera movement, and content that the top pros use.

Just the same I hope the new Olympus has 24p as a choice, I hate to see choices disappear. And Canon has spoiled us with including both NTSC and PAL frame rates in the same cameras.

Bruce Foreman · March 19th, 2012, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

I shot some very quick photos this morning with the 45mm F/1.8 for my friend of our cats. They are not amazing photos, but they are nice, shot in Program mode, quickly with no effort. I got about 40 decent photos in five minutes with no fiddling with focus or other settings. Just click click click and almost all of them came out great.

I want that lens! I've been eyeing pictures of it and from it for a couple weeks now. Those are nice looking cats too, I'm not a cat lover but I had a yellow tabby move in with us and she has won me over. That lens is sharp but the background bokeh is gorgeous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Most pleasing to me about the lens is the bokeh, it's smooth for a relatively cheap lens. In low light the DOF with a more open aperture is even better, of course.

That lens is amazing, every shot I've seen done with it has looked good. I've been testing out M4/3 with a Pen e-PL1 an amazon vendor was selling for $290, ordered the Lumix 14mm and 20mm optics, just got in the 45-200 (which dwarfs a Pen), and have a used e-P3 coming (for the 1920x1080 video).

But still photography is fun again.

Jeff Harper · March 19th, 2012, 08:57 PM

Bruce, I disagree with your assessment of 24p; the reason being that the first wedding I shot with it really had a look that I never have seen in any other footage I've shot, it is really different. I have not edited the wedding yet, but I did edit a sample clip and uploaded it, and it looked awesome.

My personal, specific issue with it was that things appear very soft in the viewfinder, and it was so difficult (for me) to get focus and feel comfortable that I had focus, it was just so darned soft looking.

The good news was that when I downloaded the footage it looked so dreamy and film like, I was really impressed with it, even though I do not know proper shooting techniques for shooting in 24p.

That being said, I have been working for awhile anyway to avoid pans and to shoot in such a way that most times pans will not be in my edits if I can avoid it, and that is an important part of shooting in 24p, either avoiding pans, or to be following a subject when panning whenever possible, or panning slowly enough that you avoid any more judder than necessary.

At any rate, I do love the look, but I have a lot to learn about using it. I hate the softness when shooting, as mentioned.

Just my 2 cents!

On the 45mm, you are so right. After those shots today I am really falling in love with it. It is such a sharp lens, with great bokeh, and easy to use, just like the 25mm and 12mm. The best part for me, running multicamera, is that they all match up well and have very similar color rendition, unlike the legacy lenses which can look fantastic, but often will not match up with the others so well. Of course with the Canon line you have the fantastic 85mm F/1.4, which I've owned and used with the 30D a few years ago, which was even better since the IS helped greatly for on the fly snapshots.

The different color rendition was the vexation I experienced with the FD 50mm and FD 85mm, Sigma 30mm F/1.4 and the Sigma 18-50 F/2.8, they produce fine images, but in certain lighting conditions the images produced were so completely different it looked odd in the final edit; the Sigmas looked so overly warm at times it was hopeless.

Anyway, the three newer primes will be very useful this season, I'm looking forward to using them all.

Mike Leah · March 28th, 2012, 05:32 PM

I love 24p and shoot it almost exclusively. It gets tricky with fast moving scenes and I've messed up a few by panning too fast but overall I feel at home with 24.

I love the 5d but like the gh2 much more. The xa10 is tempting me but more than I can spend right now.

Eric Lagerlof · March 28th, 2012, 10:29 PM

Having mostly handled larger shoulder mount pro video cameras and I found with shoulder mount cameras I was always shakier if the hand holding up the front of the camera, (and controlling the zoom rocker), was also trying to support weight. Now working with the GH2, it seems to me like a shoulder rig with a some real poundage would help. If so, make sure that you are not 'lifting' the weight with the front handles at all, if not totally balanced I would lean towards 'pulling down' the weight with the front handles, (i.e. the back of the rig is slightly heavier.

Adrian Frearson · March 29th, 2012, 02:23 AM

I'd agree with agree Eric, that the balance on the shoulder is the most important thing. I can't really understand why there are so many DSLR rigs around, yet very few of them until recently, had any kind of counter balance. All out front, is completely useless for any lengthy handheld shooting IMO.

Nigel Barker · March 31st, 2012, 04:59 AM

Any particular reason why you want to use a shoulder-rig with the GH2? Most event shooters that I know use a monopod with a DSLR. We have actually become rather intolerant of the motion that you still get with a monopod. It stops the jitters but there is a weaving around that is hard to eradicate. We now use ultra-light carbon fibre tripods whenever possible. If there is not sufficient room to spread the tripod legs then we just scrunch them up together & use it like a monopod. Alternatively one of my buddies uses a Glidecam 2000HD almost exclusively for handheld footage.

To return the original discussion. We have just got two 5D3s for our wedding work & they are fabulous. The superb low light performance is particularly useful. We have been shooting with 5D2s for over three years & have far more invested in Canon lenses than in camera bodies so it's a very logical upgrade for us. As I have mentioned here before I tried the GH2 but eventually gave up as there were so many things that made it unsuitable the only saving grace being the very high resolution of the image.

March 19th, 2012, 07:33 AM	#16
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Sell my GH2 for 5D mkiii or change lenses or what? Bruce, good points all, except I feel differently about 24p. I don't like it because it's difficult to use during event shooting and because I haven't mastered it, but as used by top pros it is stunning. When used by someone with the proper skills that actually understands it and who know how to shoot properly, it offers very good results that are near impossible to duplicate otherwise. More importantly, 24p is being used more and more, not less, and the results by high-end events people are absolutely stunning. So while it's true that is is "old", it is more than just a holdover, because it is still very a very desirable way of shooting for some. I questioned the efficacy of 24p for years, but when I need a reminder of how awesome it can be, I visit Pacific Pictures website. Since they shoot primarily in 24p, it is a reminder to me that my issues with 24p are more a reflection of my lack of skills than a reflection of the format. I see 24p as impractical for the average event person because most don't seem to know how to shoot with it. This is why I don't recommend it or use it much myself. PACIFIC PICTURES \| The Official Site \| Discover a limitless cinematic experience \| 800.677.7206

March 19th, 2012, 08:05 AM	#18
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Sell my GH2 for 5D mkiii or change lenses or what? Kevin, I have wanted a shoulder rig for ages, but have avoided buying one for the very balance issue that you mention, I'm lazy I guess and didn't want the frustration that goes with fine tuning a new piece of gear and working it out. I've looked at the spiderbraces and many others, the choices are overwhelming. I used to use a spiderbrace for my old PD150 ages ago, loved it, but the balance issue was a problem too, though for that camera it wasn't a huge deal. Kevin, I run an XA10 and a the GH2s. Is there anything you recommend that might work out for both cameras? As my busy season approaches I wonder if it would be nice to get something this year.

March 19th, 2012, 09:47 AM	#19
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	Re: Sell my GH2 for 5D mkiii or change lenses or what? A GH2 just isn't built for a shoulder rig although you can eventually rig something up but it's not going to be a streamlined video camera, just a clunky, weird looking conglomerate of accessories. I think this sort of fits into why 24p is hard to use at an event. 24p has had years of technique perfection by film professionals in controlled settings. The cameras these professionals use are not easy to toss around and get quick shots. There is a reason why old newsreels and pre-ENG TV news generally look terrible. Between the need for equipment that can be quickly deployed and the lack of set-up time generally tosses a fine tuned image. The GH2 can create film quality images but generally the set-ups I've seen to accomplish this are probably impossible to use at an event where filming is secondary to the event. The event is going on whether the camera is ready or not. My experience is that 30p is satisfactory at events unless you can arrange for a lot of camera coverage to switch to when a shot starts to look strange due to 24p judder. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

March 19th, 2012, 10:55 AM	#21
Patrick Janka Major Player Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 623	Re: Sell my GH2 for 5D mkiii or change lenses or what? Thanks for the shots, Jeff. This is a live event I shot in 24p on a stationary XHA1 in the back, and a GH2 with the Canon FDn 50mm f/1.4 on my Jag35 shoulder rig: Todd Bogue - Live @ The Improv 02/08/12 - YouTube All the up close shots were on the rig. I feel there's too much camera shake, but maybe it's just me. I feel IS would help a lot. However, the dillemma, once again, is that I'd be trading IS of the Lumix for a slower lens, which, is detrimental to me shooting in darker environments such as this one.

March 19th, 2012, 11:23 AM	#22
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Sell my GH2 for 5D mkiii or change lenses or what? Too much shake? The footage looks fine as is, some camera movement for those shots is good and give a live feel, it's desirable. Your video is perfectly fine and looks awesome. The thing is with the Lumix 45mm F/1.8 you would get auto focus and would be less trouble, but for your work maybe you don't need it. Also at 45mm it would be 90mm instead of 100, and would be a touch easier to keep steady, but for follow focus it would be tough. You held the camera very steady, I would personally not be concerned about it.

March 19th, 2012, 08:57 PM	#26
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Sell my GH2 for 5D mkiii or change lenses or what? Bruce, I disagree with your assessment of 24p; the reason being that the first wedding I shot with it really had a look that I never have seen in any other footage I've shot, it is really different. I have not edited the wedding yet, but I did edit a sample clip and uploaded it, and it looked awesome. My personal, specific issue with it was that things appear very soft in the viewfinder, and it was so difficult (for me) to get focus and feel comfortable that I had focus, it was just so darned soft looking. The good news was that when I downloaded the footage it looked so dreamy and film like, I was really impressed with it, even though I do not know proper shooting techniques for shooting in 24p. That being said, I have been working for awhile anyway to avoid pans and to shoot in such a way that most times pans will not be in my edits if I can avoid it, and that is an important part of shooting in 24p, either avoiding pans, or to be following a subject when panning whenever possible, or panning slowly enough that you avoid any more judder than necessary. At any rate, I do love the look, but I have a lot to learn about using it. I hate the softness when shooting, as mentioned. Just my 2 cents! On the 45mm, you are so right. After those shots today I am really falling in love with it. It is such a sharp lens, with great bokeh, and easy to use, just like the 25mm and 12mm. The best part for me, running multicamera, is that they all match up well and have very similar color rendition, unlike the legacy lenses which can look fantastic, but often will not match up with the others so well. Of course with the Canon line you have the fantastic 85mm F/1.4, which I've owned and used with the 30D a few years ago, which was even better since the IS helped greatly for on the fly snapshots. The different color rendition was the vexation I experienced with the FD 50mm and FD 85mm, Sigma 30mm F/1.4 and the Sigma 18-50 F/2.8, they produce fine images, but in certain lighting conditions the images produced were so completely different it looked odd in the final edit; the Sigmas looked so overly warm at times it was hopeless. Anyway, the three newer primes will be very useful this season, I'm looking forward to using them all.

March 28th, 2012, 05:32 PM	#27
Mike Leah Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: east coast Posts: 91	Re: Sell my GH2 for 5D mkiii or change lenses or what? I love 24p and shoot it almost exclusively. It gets tricky with fast moving scenes and I've messed up a few by panning too fast but overall I feel at home with 24. I love the 5d but like the gh2 much more. The xa10 is tempting me but more than I can spend right now.

March 28th, 2012, 10:29 PM	#28
Eric Lagerlof Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Pacifica, CA Posts: 348	Re: Sell my GH2 for 5D mkiii or change lenses or what? Having mostly handled larger shoulder mount pro video cameras and I found with shoulder mount cameras I was always shakier if the hand holding up the front of the camera, (and controlling the zoom rocker), was also trying to support weight. Now working with the GH2, it seems to me like a shoulder rig with a some real poundage would help. If so, make sure that you are not 'lifting' the weight with the front handles at all, if not totally balanced I would lean towards 'pulling down' the weight with the front handles, (i.e. the back of the rig is slightly heavier.

March 29th, 2012, 02:23 AM	#29
Adrian Frearson Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: U.K Posts: 154	Re: Sell my GH2 for 5D mkiii or change lenses or what? I'd agree with agree Eric, that the balance on the shoulder is the most important thing. I can't really understand why there are so many DSLR rigs around, yet very few of them until recently, had any kind of counter balance. All out front, is completely useless for any lengthy handheld shooting IMO. __________________ Adrian http://chillfactorfilms.com

March 31st, 2012, 04:59 AM	#30
Nigel Barker Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Posts: 3,531	Re: Sell my GH2 for 5D mkiii or change lenses or what? Any particular reason why you want to use a shoulder-rig with the GH2? Most event shooters that I know use a monopod with a DSLR. We have actually become rather intolerant of the motion that you still get with a monopod. It stops the jitters but there is a weaving around that is hard to eradicate. We now use ultra-light carbon fibre tripods whenever possible. If there is not sufficient room to spread the tripod legs then we just scrunch them up together & use it like a monopod. Alternatively one of my buddies uses a Glidecam 2000HD almost exclusively for handheld footage. To return the original discussion. We have just got two 5D3s for our wedding work & they are fabulous. The superb low light performance is particularly useful. We have been shooting with 5D2s for over three years & have far more invested in Canon lenses than in camera bodies so it's a very logical upgrade for us. As I have mentioned here before I tried the GH2 but eventually gave up as there were so many things that made it unsuitable the only saving grace being the very high resolution of the image.