Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? at DVinfo.net

Kevin McRoberts · November 19th, 2011, 04:10 PM

Re: PTool 3.63 and the GH2

Yes, its a hack. Yes, it takes some trial, error, and fiddling, and you have to be choosy about what cards you use.

Round one of the hack did some nice things, but really wasn't what I considered a "necessary" modification. It somewhat cleaned up higher ISO's and made footage a little more color correction tolerant.

With the newest version's ISO liberation, that's it - if you shoot with this camera in anything approaching sub-optimal lighting and DON'T hack it, you're hamstringing yourself.

For your consideration:

Note: not my footage, but I've seen similar results - outside, at night, in my basement, during concerts - it's ridiculously good.

Jeff Harper · November 20th, 2011, 01:13 AM

Remarkable footage. Would be nice to know what lens was used.

Bill Bruner · November 20th, 2011, 06:32 AM

Lens used was Voigtländer 25mm/F0.95

see: Gh2 Color footage 10.000 ASA ISO test - Panasonic GH2 on Vimeo

Kevin McRoberts · November 20th, 2011, 07:38 AM

even so, that ~1 stop difference from something like the Summilux DG 25 would get you about the same.

Pat Reddy · November 20th, 2011, 08:43 AM

Got a GH2 this weekend, loaded the "Seaquake" intra hack, and started playing around with it last night in moderate incandescent lighting. I shot with the iso at 2500 using the cheap kit lens at f3.5. The quality of the clips was unlike anything I have ever seen from the XF100, XHA1, or 5DII. Excellent resolution and motion representation and very very fine film like grain. I'm not selling my XF100, but the GH2 will now be the go to camera in cases where I have the time to set up the shot or want the highest image quality I can get. Even overexposed shots had a beautiful high key look to them.

Pat

Federico Perale · November 21st, 2011, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Reddy

shot with the iso at 2500 using the cheap kit lens at f3.5. The quality of the clips was unlike anything I have ever seen from the XF100, XHA1, or 5DII.

Pat

hi Pat, that's quite a statement. do you really feel the image from the GH2 with a cheap lens delivers better than a 5d mk2 even with a good lens (like an L lens)? I own a 5Dmk2 and a Canon HFg10 and, although I love the image quality, I am almost ready to pull the trigger on the GH2, and posts like yours are providing me with more reasons to do it.

can you compare more specifically your experience with the 5Dmk2 vs the GH2?
thanks

Jeff Harper · November 21st, 2011, 07:07 AM

As an event shooter who shoots in low light the hack would be tempting at first glance. But we have to keep in mind it was shot at 42mbps, a F/0.95 lens was used, noise reduction was used in post, there is no comparison footage, and most importantly the hack is not reliable and cannot be depended upon.

One would have to find a card/camera combo that works every time. Is that even possible? Too many stories of bad or corrupted files when using hacks for me to consider it.

Regarding the lens, as the shooter says focusing was very difficult, which is typical with an extremely DOF. The Voightlander is a fine lens, to be sure, and if I had one I would likely enjoy using it, but for event shooting, for me, it is not close to practical. Manual focusing with such a lens would take more time than I have when recording a wedding or reception.

This is a case of pushing things to the extreme, kind of like modding a street car with jet fuel. It will go fast, but it is not practical or even desireable to use as a taxi.

I'm dealing with a wedding with which my editor has lost some original footage, making a re-edit impossible. I am going through hell right now because of the emotional impact this will have on my client, a repeat client who I will lose forever because of lost footage. I mention this because there are enough variables and stresses involved with event shooting that to add the uncertainty of a hack to the equation is not an option for me.

Pat Reddy · November 21st, 2011, 08:49 AM

Federico,

With the highest bit rate hacks, the GH2 looks way better than my 5d2 will L lenses. I am using a fast class 10 card, but there are occasional hickups. Also I have found that the GH2 in 24p mode has pulsing (not the same as normal 24p judder) on high-detail elements like grass and tree branches. This is less apparent on indoor shots, and shots where you have narrow or shallow DOF. This pulsing looks just like what I saw on Panasonic's TM700 until I turned in-camera sharpening down. I think Jeff observed this pulsing in some of his recent shots. Turning sharpening all the way down (-2) in the GH2 doesn't get rid of it.

I haven't tried the 42 and 44 mbs hacks, but the higher bit rate hacks occasionally cause card errors of shorts. There are people using the various forms of hacks for pro work, but it is a bit of an adventure, and you would have to be willing to live with or work around these issues.

Some people are getting rid of the pulsing by softening the focus with filters. The tiniest amount of gaussian blur in Vegas helps. Shooting with narrow DOF helps greatly and I never saw problems when shooting this way (nor do I see it in the sample footage discussed here).

Are the hacks good enough for pro work, events, run and gun? I think it depends on how much you are willing to deal with the issues, test, find solutions, and practice.

All I can say for sure is that low light shallow DOF shots at home a few days ago were the best I have ever seen from any of my cameras (XF100, 5D2 with L glass, and XH-A1)

Pat

Kevin McRoberts · November 22nd, 2011, 08:26 AM

Consider that while the ISO deregulation and reduced noise at increased bitrates allows you to shoot with a fast lens in minimal light, it also lets you use a slow lens (~f4-5.6) in reduced indoor light.

I do agree that hacking your camera and then immediately using it on an ultra-long-take paying job is likely not the best idea. With a stageplay shoot coming up, I'm pre-testing by just setting up the camera at home with a spanning hack and letting it run for 2-3 straight hours. So far, there's been no problem.

Jeff Harper · November 22nd, 2011, 09:26 AM

Kevin, when I'm done editing my currentl backlog, I am likely to try it to see the results. If things were to work out and prove stable enough, it would be an incredible advantage to have.

Cuong Dinh · November 22nd, 2011, 01:21 PM

GH2 test vs 5D2 at wedding.

GH2 at ISO 3200, Aperture 2.8 14mm lens. Wide shot
5D2 at ISO 1600, 50mm lens. Medium shot.
Audio from original microphone build in with GH2 Level 1.
Footage is direct from original cameras (no hack) no color correction.

Jeff Harper · November 22nd, 2011, 02:59 PM

Thanks for posting. What was the lens used on the Canon?

Cuong Dinh · November 22nd, 2011, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Thanks for posting. What was the lens used on the Canon?

Prime lens 50mm on Canon 5D.

Jeff Harper · November 22nd, 2011, 04:34 PM

1.4 or 1.8?

Cuong Dinh · November 22nd, 2011, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

1.4 or 1.8?

My lens is 1.2L :)

November 19th, 2011, 04:10 PM	#1
Kevin McRoberts Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 700	Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? Re: PTool 3.63 and the GH2 Yes, its a hack. Yes, it takes some trial, error, and fiddling, and you have to be choosy about what cards you use. Round one of the hack did some nice things, but really wasn't what I considered a "necessary" modification. It somewhat cleaned up higher ISO's and made footage a little more color correction tolerant. With the newest version's ISO liberation, that's it - if you shoot with this camera in anything approaching sub-optimal lighting and DON'T hack it, you're hamstringing yourself. For your consideration: Gh2 Color footage 10.000 ASA ISO test on Vimeo Note: not my footage, but I've seen similar results - outside, at night, in my basement, during concerts - it's ridiculously good. __________________ Freelance pudgy bearded lighting camera operator www.mcbob.tv

November 20th, 2011, 01:13 AM	#2
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? Remarkable footage. Would be nice to know what lens was used. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

November 20th, 2011, 06:32 AM	#3
Bill Bruner Major Player Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Sunny California Posts: 513	Re: Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? Lens used was Voigtländer 25mm/F0.95 see: Gh2 Color footage 10.000 ASA ISO test - Panasonic GH2 on Vimeo

November 20th, 2011, 07:38 AM	#4
Kevin McRoberts Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 700	Re: Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? even so, that ~1 stop difference from something like the Summilux DG 25 would get you about the same. __________________ Freelance pudgy bearded lighting camera operator www.mcbob.tv

November 20th, 2011, 08:43 AM	#5
Pat Reddy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 288	Re: Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? Got a GH2 this weekend, loaded the "Seaquake" intra hack, and started playing around with it last night in moderate incandescent lighting. I shot with the iso at 2500 using the cheap kit lens at f3.5. The quality of the clips was unlike anything I have ever seen from the XF100, XHA1, or 5DII. Excellent resolution and motion representation and very very fine film like grain. I'm not selling my XF100, but the GH2 will now be the go to camera in cases where I have the time to set up the shot or want the highest image quality I can get. Even overexposed shots had a beautiful high key look to them. Pat

November 21st, 2011, 07:07 AM	#7
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? As an event shooter who shoots in low light the hack would be tempting at first glance. But we have to keep in mind it was shot at 42mbps, a F/0.95 lens was used, noise reduction was used in post, there is no comparison footage, and most importantly the hack is not reliable and cannot be depended upon. One would have to find a card/camera combo that works every time. Is that even possible? Too many stories of bad or corrupted files when using hacks for me to consider it. Regarding the lens, as the shooter says focusing was very difficult, which is typical with an extremely DOF. The Voightlander is a fine lens, to be sure, and if I had one I would likely enjoy using it, but for event shooting, for me, it is not close to practical. Manual focusing with such a lens would take more time than I have when recording a wedding or reception. This is a case of pushing things to the extreme, kind of like modding a street car with jet fuel. It will go fast, but it is not practical or even desireable to use as a taxi. I'm dealing with a wedding with which my editor has lost some original footage, making a re-edit impossible. I am going through hell right now because of the emotional impact this will have on my client, a repeat client who I will lose forever because of lost footage. I mention this because there are enough variables and stresses involved with event shooting that to add the uncertainty of a hack to the equation is not an option for me. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

November 21st, 2011, 08:49 AM	#8
Pat Reddy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 288	Re: Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? Federico, With the highest bit rate hacks, the GH2 looks way better than my 5d2 will L lenses. I am using a fast class 10 card, but there are occasional hickups. Also I have found that the GH2 in 24p mode has pulsing (not the same as normal 24p judder) on high-detail elements like grass and tree branches. This is less apparent on indoor shots, and shots where you have narrow or shallow DOF. This pulsing looks just like what I saw on Panasonic's TM700 until I turned in-camera sharpening down. I think Jeff observed this pulsing in some of his recent shots. Turning sharpening all the way down (-2) in the GH2 doesn't get rid of it. I haven't tried the 42 and 44 mbs hacks, but the higher bit rate hacks occasionally cause card errors of shorts. There are people using the various forms of hacks for pro work, but it is a bit of an adventure, and you would have to be willing to live with or work around these issues. Some people are getting rid of the pulsing by softening the focus with filters. The tiniest amount of gaussian blur in Vegas helps. Shooting with narrow DOF helps greatly and I never saw problems when shooting this way (nor do I see it in the sample footage discussed here). Are the hacks good enough for pro work, events, run and gun? I think it depends on how much you are willing to deal with the issues, test, find solutions, and practice. All I can say for sure is that low light shallow DOF shots at home a few days ago were the best I have ever seen from any of my cameras (XF100, 5D2 with L glass, and XH-A1) Pat

November 22nd, 2011, 08:26 AM	#9
Kevin McRoberts Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 700	Re: Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? Consider that while the ISO deregulation and reduced noise at increased bitrates allows you to shoot with a fast lens in minimal light, it also lets you use a slow lens (~f4-5.6) in reduced indoor light. I do agree that hacking your camera and then immediately using it on an ultra-long-take paying job is likely not the best idea. With a stageplay shoot coming up, I'm pre-testing by just setting up the camera at home with a spanning hack and letting it run for 2-3 straight hours. So far, there's been no problem. __________________ Freelance pudgy bearded lighting camera operator www.mcbob.tv

November 22nd, 2011, 09:26 AM	#10
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? Kevin, when I'm done editing my currentl backlog, I am likely to try it to see the results. If things were to work out and prove stable enough, it would be an incredible advantage to have. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

November 22nd, 2011, 01:21 PM	#11
Cuong Dinh Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Dallas, TX - USA Posts: 89	Re: Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? GH2 test vs 5D2 at wedding. GH2 at ISO 3200, Aperture 2.8 14mm lens. Wide shot 5D2 at ISO 1600, 50mm lens. Medium shot. Audio from original microphone build in with GH2 Level 1. Footage is direct from original cameras (no hack) no color correction. GH2 Test on Vimeo __________________ Cuong Dinh Video weddingfilmhd.com Last edited by Cuong Dinh; November 22nd, 2011 at 01:23 PM. Reason: more detail

November 22nd, 2011, 02:59 PM	#12
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? Thanks for posting. What was the lens used on the Canon? __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

November 22nd, 2011, 04:34 PM	#14
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Still staying away from the hack? Shoot in low light? 1.4 or 1.8? __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."