Getting a video camera

William Hohauser · September 24th, 2011, 07:54 AM

24p and 30p are not that far apart in look. The GH2 does not have a true 24f 1/48th shutter speed as a mechanical film camera would have but 1/50 is close enough and 1/40 doesn't look too smudgy. As for panning, there are a few pan speeds that don't work well and you'll probably learn to avoid them but that's usually for environmental shots where you are not following a subject. As long as the subject commands a decent part of the frame, image stutter becomes less noticeable on pan speeds where it might be an issue.

Nigel Barker · September 24th, 2011, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Hohauser

24p and 30p are not that far apart in look. The GH2 does not have a true 24f 1/48th shutter speed as a mechanical film camera would have but 1/50 is close enough and 1/40 doesn't look too smudgy. As for panning, there are a few pan speeds that don't work well and you'll probably learn to avoid them but that's usually for environmental shots where you are not following a subject. As long as the subject commands a decent part of the frame, image stutter becomes less noticeable on pan speeds where it might be an issue.

Here in PAL-land we normally shoot 25fps if we are shooting progressive anyway.

Jeff Harper · September 24th, 2011, 08:57 AM

So William, Nigel, could I safely shoot in 24p at about 50fps then without much experience at it?

My main concern I suppose would be when I go handheld with my 12mm F/2.0 lens, which I do an awful lot. As it is, the footage is so smooth and silky, it's like I'm on a steady cam, I swear. Anway there is still movement of course, but I love the look I have now with 720p.

I'm wondering how 1080i on my other cam will look deinterlaced and resized. Because I tend to like to stick with things that work, my instinct tells me to just stick with 720p and run the other cam at 1080i, but as mentioned the 1080 24p sounds cool, I'm just afraid of it.

Kevin McRoberts · September 24th, 2011, 09:21 AM

Stick with 60p for paying jobs and play around with 24p in the off-hours to see how it works for you.

William Hohauser · September 24th, 2011, 08:21 PM

Quote frankly I would also suggest sticking with 30p. There no real need to shoot weddings at 24p or anything else besides cinematic fare. It's the DOF that's giving your work that touch of class not the frame rate. At least that's my opinion.

Jeff Harper · September 25th, 2011, 05:35 AM

Nigel, William, I think you might be right.

I shot a speech at a country club last night, used the GH2 with the 20mm F/1.7 (720 60p) and I shot with the XA10 at 1080 24p. The XA10 wasn't a second camera, I had an hour to sit and just shoot from the back and goof-off during the speech.

From what I can see, the 24p did not seem any different, except it was not as smooth when their was movement. Not a huge bonus, IMO.

I don't know much about 24p, of course, and last night was an informal test in low light. At any rate, William, your comment seems right on the money: it's DOF that gives video a more elegant look, not 24p so much.

On the other hand, 24p may lend itself to better low-light performance because it uses slower shutter speeds, at least from what I've read, but I don't know if that advantage is enough to offset any issues.

On the other hand, advantages in low light would be worth looking at, I might bring up the topic for kicks somewhere, but if you guys want to address that, that would be great also.

I should add here that the XA10 looked about the same as the GH2 last night against a 20mm f/1.7, I was very impressed. GH2 looked better of course, but only VERY slightly, and I didn't tinker with it at all like I should have before hitting record. The GH2 was 5 feet from the speakers, the XA10 was 50 feet, so the GH2 was at a significant advantage. Point: XA10.

Chris Harding · September 25th, 2011, 06:02 AM

Hi Jeff
I have done the full circle now ..starting in 1080i at 17mbps and then trying weddings in 720 50P and then again in 1080 25P (remember we are pal here) and finally in 24P.

I agree with William, the frame rate is a minor part if you want "film-like" footage..the shallow DOF is the big thing!!

As I shoot weddings in documentary style I have gone back to shooting now at 1080i at 24 mbps and the footage is crisp, clean with no worry about motion blur and it downsizes perfectly too.

For stuff like weddings where there are no second takes, shooting 1080 i gives me the best security and absolutely consistent results. I really don't think any bride would even worry, let alone notice what format you have shot it but give her a blurry shot or lose focus and she will let you know in no uncertain terms!!

Chris

Jeff Harper · September 25th, 2011, 06:28 AM

Thanks for your input Chris, much appreciate you sharing your journey. What advantage do you see with 1080 60i over 720 60P? The 1080 part? 60p is so smooth! I also wonder how my 60i will translate when converted to 60p? (effectively I guess it will be 30p). You tried it?

Chris Harding · September 25th, 2011, 08:13 AM

Hi Jeff

The main issue I had with 720 double frame was that even on my i7 preview quickly drops down to half resolution in Vegas while interlaced runs full frame all the time. I guess the processor has to work harder??? Yes, double frame is smooth but so is interlaced!! There may be a tiny amount of resolution difference but by the time it gets to the bride on DVD not even I can see it.

When I do 360's with the stedicam (I think Don calls them roundy rounds) double frame is a tad smoother but I don't really need to have to worry about format changes for a 15 minute photoshoot. I try to make the wedding experience as painless as possible.

Seriously just on this forum, one person says "What?? you are shooting in 1080i?? Why not progressive, it's so much better" ...the next says "You are shooting in 720 50P?? Why interlaced is just as good"

It's purely a matter of choice I think!! I did 7 identical test clips from 1080i to 720 25P and also Cineform transcodes, as well as Upshift transcodes and even DV-AVI (my cam can also shoot SD) I dropped them all onto a DVD and watched them in 3 banks of 7 clips each BUT mixed up so I lost track of which was which and let me tell you..you cannot say with absolute certainty which clip was which format!! The only easy one was the DV-AVI clip the rest were so close I just couldn't pick anything that stood out from the others!!! Try it sometime..it brings you down to earth with a bump!!

We NEED technical format discussions to keep our minds active here but in real life if you are going to downsize to a DVD there is really nothing in it!!!

Chris

William Hohauser · September 25th, 2011, 08:15 AM

I have mixed 1080i with 720p and the big factor is the shutter speed. At 1/60 shutter both look identical although there are minor interlaced aliasing issues with 1080i that your clients will probably never notice. Remember that 1080i is really two successive 540p frames mashed together. My trick is to set the cameras' shutters to 1/30th which effectively forces the 1080i camera to 1080p. I just make sure that the 1080 camera model I'm using records a full resolution frame when in slow shutter. Most, if not all, do now but years ago that wasn't true. Also helps in low light situation. While the motion might be a little too blurry for sports, it works great for music, interviews and other subjects.

Brian Luce · September 25th, 2011, 11:30 PM

24p has a different motion signature than 30p or 60. If you want your footage to look filmic, use 24p. It's really that simple. If you want a harsher, LIVE look, use 30/60p.

September 24th, 2011, 07:54 AM	#46
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	Re: Getting a video camera 24p and 30p are not that far apart in look. The GH2 does not have a true 24f 1/48th shutter speed as a mechanical film camera would have but 1/50 is close enough and 1/40 doesn't look too smudgy. As for panning, there are a few pan speeds that don't work well and you'll probably learn to avoid them but that's usually for environmental shots where you are not following a subject. As long as the subject commands a decent part of the frame, image stutter becomes less noticeable on pan speeds where it might be an issue. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

September 24th, 2011, 08:57 AM	#48
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Getting a video camera So William, Nigel, could I safely shoot in 24p at about 50fps then without much experience at it? My main concern I suppose would be when I go handheld with my 12mm F/2.0 lens, which I do an awful lot. As it is, the footage is so smooth and silky, it's like I'm on a steady cam, I swear. Anway there is still movement of course, but I love the look I have now with 720p. I'm wondering how 1080i on my other cam will look deinterlaced and resized. Because I tend to like to stick with things that work, my instinct tells me to just stick with 720p and run the other cam at 1080i, but as mentioned the 1080 24p sounds cool, I'm just afraid of it. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

September 24th, 2011, 09:21 AM	#49
Kevin McRoberts Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 700	Re: Getting a video camera Stick with 60p for paying jobs and play around with 24p in the off-hours to see how it works for you. __________________ Freelance pudgy bearded lighting camera operator www.mcbob.tv

September 24th, 2011, 08:21 PM	#50
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	Re: Getting a video camera Quote frankly I would also suggest sticking with 30p. There no real need to shoot weddings at 24p or anything else besides cinematic fare. It's the DOF that's giving your work that touch of class not the frame rate. At least that's my opinion. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

September 25th, 2011, 05:35 AM	#51
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Getting a video camera Nigel, William, I think you might be right. I shot a speech at a country club last night, used the GH2 with the 20mm F/1.7 (720 60p) and I shot with the XA10 at 1080 24p. The XA10 wasn't a second camera, I had an hour to sit and just shoot from the back and goof-off during the speech. From what I can see, the 24p did not seem any different, except it was not as smooth when their was movement. Not a huge bonus, IMO. I don't know much about 24p, of course, and last night was an informal test in low light. At any rate, William, your comment seems right on the money: it's DOF that gives video a more elegant look, not 24p so much. On the other hand, 24p may lend itself to better low-light performance because it uses slower shutter speeds, at least from what I've read, but I don't know if that advantage is enough to offset any issues. On the other hand, advantages in low light would be worth looking at, I might bring up the topic for kicks somewhere, but if you guys want to address that, that would be great also. I should add here that the XA10 looked about the same as the GH2 last night against a 20mm f/1.7, I was very impressed. GH2 looked better of course, but only VERY slightly, and I didn't tinker with it at all like I should have before hitting record. The GH2 was 5 feet from the speakers, the XA10 was 50 feet, so the GH2 was at a significant advantage. Point: XA10. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

September 25th, 2011, 06:02 AM	#52
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Getting a video camera Hi Jeff I have done the full circle now ..starting in 1080i at 17mbps and then trying weddings in 720 50P and then again in 1080 25P (remember we are pal here) and finally in 24P. I agree with William, the frame rate is a minor part if you want "film-like" footage..the shallow DOF is the big thing!! As I shoot weddings in documentary style I have gone back to shooting now at 1080i at 24 mbps and the footage is crisp, clean with no worry about motion blur and it downsizes perfectly too. For stuff like weddings where there are no second takes, shooting 1080 i gives me the best security and absolutely consistent results. I really don't think any bride would even worry, let alone notice what format you have shot it but give her a blurry shot or lose focus and she will let you know in no uncertain terms!! Chris

September 25th, 2011, 06:28 AM	#53
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Getting a video camera Thanks for your input Chris, much appreciate you sharing your journey. What advantage do you see with 1080 60i over 720 60P? The 1080 part? 60p is so smooth! I also wonder how my 60i will translate when converted to 60p? (effectively I guess it will be 30p). You tried it? __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

September 25th, 2011, 08:13 AM	#54
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Getting a video camera Hi Jeff The main issue I had with 720 double frame was that even on my i7 preview quickly drops down to half resolution in Vegas while interlaced runs full frame all the time. I guess the processor has to work harder??? Yes, double frame is smooth but so is interlaced!! There may be a tiny amount of resolution difference but by the time it gets to the bride on DVD not even I can see it. When I do 360's with the stedicam (I think Don calls them roundy rounds) double frame is a tad smoother but I don't really need to have to worry about format changes for a 15 minute photoshoot. I try to make the wedding experience as painless as possible. Seriously just on this forum, one person says "What?? you are shooting in 1080i?? Why not progressive, it's so much better" ...the next says "You are shooting in 720 50P?? Why interlaced is just as good" It's purely a matter of choice I think!! I did 7 identical test clips from 1080i to 720 25P and also Cineform transcodes, as well as Upshift transcodes and even DV-AVI (my cam can also shoot SD) I dropped them all onto a DVD and watched them in 3 banks of 7 clips each BUT mixed up so I lost track of which was which and let me tell you..you cannot say with absolute certainty which clip was which format!! The only easy one was the DV-AVI clip the rest were so close I just couldn't pick anything that stood out from the others!!! Try it sometime..it brings you down to earth with a bump!! We NEED technical format discussions to keep our minds active here but in real life if you are going to downsize to a DVD there is really nothing in it!!! Chris

September 25th, 2011, 08:15 AM	#55
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	Re: Getting a video camera I have mixed 1080i with 720p and the big factor is the shutter speed. At 1/60 shutter both look identical although there are minor interlaced aliasing issues with 1080i that your clients will probably never notice. Remember that 1080i is really two successive 540p frames mashed together. My trick is to set the cameras' shutters to 1/30th which effectively forces the 1080i camera to 1080p. I just make sure that the 1080 camera model I'm using records a full resolution frame when in slow shutter. Most, if not all, do now but years ago that wasn't true. Also helps in low light situation. While the motion might be a little too blurry for sports, it works great for music, interviews and other subjects. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

September 25th, 2011, 11:30 PM	#56
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	Re: Getting a video camera 24p has a different motion signature than 30p or 60. If you want your footage to look filmic, use 24p. It's really that simple. If you want a harsher, LIVE look, use 30/60p.