Moire with GH2 after converted

Brian Luce · February 28th, 2011, 03:59 PM

George, what can I say, fences are a big problem. You might have better luck with 24p High quality. But fences are always tough, especially chain link.

Jeff Harper · March 1st, 2011, 09:13 AM

I agree, Brian. Using a pan of a fence as an example of poor performance by this camera is nonsensical UNLESS compared to another camera in the exact same situation for comparison purposes.

George Kilroy · March 1st, 2011, 10:00 AM

I posted to ask those here with experience of this camera if the patterning was something I should expect from this camera as I'd never heard mention of it during my research. The answer seemed to be yes in certain circumstances but not as bad as some other stills cameras that shoot video. That's interesting to know but wasn't really what I was after, I'm not doing a comparison or evaluation to decide which to buy. I had done that and had decided that this was the only stills camera that would suit my work practice. I tried it and didn't like the result, I might be quite alone in this but there you are.

I wasn't out to prove a point or criticise the camera, or say that there is a better one.

Jim Snow · March 1st, 2011, 10:22 AM

If you will go shoot that fence with the GH2 set to EX TELE mode, you won't see any moire. It may not be as much fun as recreational equivocation on a forum but it will be an effective demonstration of the benefit of doing so. The GH2 is the only DSLR camera (with or without a mirror) that has a mode to eliminate moire in problematic shots - and you want to send it back for moire! That doesn't make any sense.

Brian Luce · March 1st, 2011, 10:38 AM

A good question might be, NOT which DSLR (with or without mirror), but which video camera can handle a chain link fence without some sort of artifacting. How high up the food chain does one have to go?

Chris Hurd · March 1st, 2011, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Snow

The GH2 is the only DSLR camera (with or without a mirror) ...

Once again: if it doesn't have a mirror then it's not a DSLR, by definition.

Sorry to keep harping on this, but the distinction is important.

The GH2 is *not* a DSLR.

If you want to assign a type to it then it should be called EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens).
Or if you don't like how that sounds, call it ILEV (Interchangeable Lens Electronic Viewfinder).
But not a DSLR, which it cannot be, since it doesn't have a mirror. Hope this helps,

Jeff Harper · March 1st, 2011, 10:45 AM

Well George, you aren't the only one sending your camra back. Many are finding out this is not the camera for them.

I have friend who was totally sold until he used them for wedding work last week. They are too much work for many folks. The lenses required, the need for complete manual operations, the menus, are too much.

When you put the effort into it, the results are stunning. Proof is everywhere. For ease of operation, compared to other similar, it is a walk in the park. For a traditional videographer, particularly those not experienced in manually operating a camera, it is a nightmare.

I know, because I am a "traditional" videographer, with a smidgen of photography experience. Saturday was the toughest shoot of my life, and the results were extremely disappointing. The reason? I have not yet mastered the camera I own.

Jim Snow · March 1st, 2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

A good question might be, which video camera can handle a chain link fence without some sort of artifacting. How high up the food chain does one have to go?

It would be a camera that has a 1 to 1 sensor array versus image size. Resizing in the camera causes moire. It's an unavoidable aspect of resizing. The benefit of the EX TELE mode in the GH2 is that it does a 1 to 1 sensor map. That's why it is able to shoots these difficult shots without moire. As they say in the commercial, "Try it, you will like it."

Chris Hurd · March 1st, 2011, 10:47 AM

Sounds like it's better suited for controlled narratives rather than unrepeatable events.

Jeff Harper · March 1st, 2011, 10:52 AM

It is an interesting feature, Jim. As Chris pointed out not useful for run and gun, but for run and gun moire is not an issue 99.999% of the time. Moire is not usually a problem when shooting speakers, wedding ceremonies, and the like.

Jim Snow · March 1st, 2011, 10:56 AM

Chris, Jeff - That's an excellent way to describe it.

Martyn Hull · March 1st, 2011, 11:08 AM

George i have done several tests and find 720P resolution /sharpness to be the same as interlaced and i am not talking about after the 50i has been deinterlaced which loses resolution.

Guy McLoughlin · March 1st, 2011, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Kilroy

when I put the clips into my CS5 timeline there is pronounced moire patterning.Here is a clip that illustrates what I mean, it can be seen in the railings.

George,

Can you post a full resolution screen capture from your shoot, either in TIFF or PNG format.

I am guessing that your Vimeo video clip is scaled down from the original size. Sometimes aliasing/moire problems can be introduced by the scaling process, so I am curious to see what a full resolution uncompressed image from your video looks like.

Brian Luce · March 1st, 2011, 09:03 PM

George,
I don't know about CS5, but judging image quality on a timeline monitor wouldn't give an accurate representation of actual image quality with a lot of NLE's. Render it out and see if the problem is still there.

Jim Snow · March 2nd, 2011, 05:36 PM

That is especially true when evaluating moire since resizing is done very much so on the time line and resizing is THE cause of moire.

February 28th, 2011, 03:59 PM	#91
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	Re: Moire with GH2 after converted George, what can I say, fences are a big problem. You might have better luck with 24p High quality. But fences are always tough, especially chain link.

March 1st, 2011, 09:13 AM	#92
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Moire with GH2 after converted I agree, Brian. Using a pan of a fence as an example of poor performance by this camera is nonsensical UNLESS compared to another camera in the exact same situation for comparison purposes. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

March 1st, 2011, 10:00 AM	#93
George Kilroy Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Midlands UK Posts: 699	Re: Moire with GH2 after converted I posted to ask those here with experience of this camera if the patterning was something I should expect from this camera as I'd never heard mention of it during my research. The answer seemed to be yes in certain circumstances but not as bad as some other stills cameras that shoot video. That's interesting to know but wasn't really what I was after, I'm not doing a comparison or evaluation to decide which to buy. I had done that and had decided that this was the only stills camera that would suit my work practice. I tried it and didn't like the result, I might be quite alone in this but there you are. I wasn't out to prove a point or criticise the camera, or say that there is a better one.

March 1st, 2011, 10:22 AM	#94
Jim Snow Trustee Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 1,104	Re: Moire with GH2 after converted If you will go shoot that fence with the GH2 set to EX TELE mode, you won't see any moire. It may not be as much fun as recreational equivocation on a forum but it will be an effective demonstration of the benefit of doing so. The GH2 is the only DSLR camera (with or without a mirror) that has a mode to eliminate moire in problematic shots - and you want to send it back for moire! That doesn't make any sense.

March 1st, 2011, 10:38 AM	#95
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	Re: Moire with GH2 after converted A good question might be, NOT which DSLR (with or without mirror), but which video camera can handle a chain link fence without some sort of artifacting. How high up the food chain does one have to go?

March 1st, 2011, 10:45 AM	#97
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Moire with GH2 after converted Well George, you aren't the only one sending your camra back. Many are finding out this is not the camera for them. I have friend who was totally sold until he used them for wedding work last week. They are too much work for many folks. The lenses required, the need for complete manual operations, the menus, are too much. When you put the effort into it, the results are stunning. Proof is everywhere. For ease of operation, compared to other similar, it is a walk in the park. For a traditional videographer, particularly those not experienced in manually operating a camera, it is a nightmare. I know, because I am a "traditional" videographer, with a smidgen of photography experience. Saturday was the toughest shoot of my life, and the results were extremely disappointing. The reason? I have not yet mastered the camera I own. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

March 1st, 2011, 10:47 AM	#99
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,369 Images: 513	Re: Moire with GH2 after converted Sounds like it's better suited for controlled narratives rather than unrepeatable events. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 1st, 2011, 10:52 AM	#100
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Moire with GH2 after converted It is an interesting feature, Jim. As Chris pointed out not useful for run and gun, but for run and gun moire is not an issue 99.999% of the time. Moire is not usually a problem when shooting speakers, wedding ceremonies, and the like. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

March 1st, 2011, 10:56 AM	#101
Jim Snow Trustee Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 1,104	Re: Moire with GH2 after converted Chris, Jeff - That's an excellent way to describe it.

March 1st, 2011, 11:08 AM	#102
Martyn Hull Major Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: England Posts: 444	Re: Moire with GH2 after converted George i have done several tests and find 720P resolution /sharpness to be the same as interlaced and i am not talking about after the 50i has been deinterlaced which loses resolution.

March 1st, 2011, 09:03 PM	#104
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	Re: Moire with GH2 after converted George, I don't know about CS5, but judging image quality on a timeline monitor wouldn't give an accurate representation of actual image quality with a lot of NLE's. Render it out and see if the problem is still there.

March 2nd, 2011, 05:36 PM	#105
Jim Snow Trustee Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 1,104	Re: Moire with GH2 after converted That is especially true when evaluating moire since resizing is done very much so on the time line and resizing is THE cause of moire.