Camcorder 16-235

[Chris Clementson]

I'm looking for a camcorder in the under-$2,000 range with just one requirement:

It MUST have a video output range of 8-bit 16-235 (BT.709), otherwise no deal.

OK if selectable between 16-235 and 0-255.

Thank you.

[Doug Jensen]

8-bit output, that's your only requirement?
Hmm, seems kind of strange not not care about resolution, sensor size, lens, type of output connector, size, cost, battery, exposure controls, frame rates, codecs, memory cards, focus performance, audio input, etc.

But if all you care about is 8-bit, here you go, and it's only $96.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1732608-REG/minolta_mn90nv_m_mn90nv_full_hd.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801

[Chris Clementson]

8-bit output, that's your only requirement?

Read the post again.

[Doug Jensen]

What did I miss? You said ONE requirement. Technically, if you want to stay under $2000 that is a second requirement, but who's counting. You can get 20 of these Minoltas and still be under budget.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Chris Clementson

I'm looking for a camcorder in the under-$2,000 range with just one requirement:

It MUST have a video output range of 8-bit 16-235 (BT.709), otherwise no deal.

OK if selectable between 16-235 and 0-255.

Thank you.

Have you though about building your very own 8 bit computer?
https://eater.net/8bit/

[Chris Clementson]

It MUST have a video output range of 8-bit ***16 - 235 (BT.709)***, otherwise no deal.

>>> Output range of ***16 - 235***. <<<

[Barry Lloyd]

sorry I don't really understand so dont know if this is of any help but it does mention 8 bit in some formats. As for the rest of your requirements i think are too specific to be in any posted specification for camcorders


Panasonic HC-X1500 ( about £1400) it does broadcasts as well

MOV [4:2:0 8bit] UHD 3840x2160 59.94p/50.00p 150M: Average 150Mbps (VBR)
UHD 3840x2160 29.97p/25.00p/23.98p 100M: Average 100Mbps (VBR)
[4:2:2 10bit] UHD 3840x2160 29.97p/25.00p/23.98p 150M: Average 150Mbps (VBR)
FHD 1920x1080 59.94p/50.00p 200M (ALL-Intra): Average 200Mbps (VBR)
FHD 1920x1080 29.97p/25.00p/23.98p 100M (ALL-Intra): Average 100Mbps (VBR)
FHD 1920x1080 59.94i/50i 100M (ALL-Intra): Average 100Mbps (VBR)
FHD 1920x1080 59.94p/50.00p 100M: Average 100Mbps (VBR)
FHD 1920x1080 29.97p/25.00p/23.98p/59.94i/50.00i 50M: Average 50Mbps (VBR)
MP4 (HEVC) [4:2:0 10bit] UHD 3840x2160 59.94p/50.00p HEVC 100M: Average 100Mbps (VBR)
UHD 3840x2160 29.97p/25.00p/23.98p HEVC 72M: Average 72Mbps (VBR)
MP4 [4:2:0 8bit] UHD 3840x2160 29.97p/25.00p/23.98p 72M: Average 72Mbps (VBR)
FHD 1920x1080 59.94p/50.00p/23.98p 50M: Average 50Mbps (VBR)
AVCHD [4:2:0 8bit] PS 1920x1080 59.94p/50.00p: Average 25Mbps (VBR)
PH 1920x1080 59.94i/50.00i/23.98p: Average 21Mbps (VBR)
HA 1920x1080 59.94i/50.00i: Average 17Mbps (VBR)
PM 1280x720 59.94p/50.00p: Average 8Mbps (VBR)

[Christopher Young]

Originally Posted by Chris Clementson

I'm looking for a camcorder in the under-$2,000 range with just one requirement:

It MUST have a video output range of 8-bit 16-235 (BT.709), otherwise no deal.

OK if selectable between 16-235 and 0-255.

Thank you.

16-235 are the 8-bit values that are the same levels as 64-940 in 10-bit values. Both ranges are "709 levels". I don't know of any camera released in the 50 or 60 Hz world that doesn't cover all those 16–235 output levels plus more, whether it be an under $2,000 camcorder or a high-end broadcast camcorder. Some of your GH series Panasonic mirrorless cameras can be limited to 235 output levels. But then they are not camcorders in the trus sense.

If you want to electronically "limit" your peak levels to 100 IRE, 235 or 940 depending on whether it's 8 or 10-bit, you will need to find a camcorder which allows you to set black levels to 0 IRE and white levels, the clipper in other words, to 100 IRE.

I can't recall any domestic camcorder that offers you those settings in its setup menus. Most fully featured professional cameras will in their "Paint" menus allow you to set Black levels to 0 IRE and White Clip levels to 100 IRE. Once set, you will really need to put any camera on a WFM [Waveform Monitor] to get a 100% accurate adjustment of those blacks and white clip levels.

Going to 109 IRE allows for the retention of detail above 100 IRE in the recording. That's why most cameras will go to 109 levels. Why? With a view to those over 100 IRE levels being controlled during post-production editing. Usually by the application of levels or curves to the signal. This way you can maintain and bring into the permissible 0-100 range (16-235 levels) the detail that you would lose if you clipped your recordings in camera at 100 IRE.

If you set a clipper at 100 [235 in 8-bit, 940 in10-bit] in your camera, what happens? If your camera is hard limited to 235, when you expose correctly for your overall picture levels in the mid-range and skin tone levels, you will clip your highlight levels and lose detail. Highlights which are now totally gone and lost forever, and that looks awful.

If you need to strictly stick to an output of 100 IRE [ those 235 or 940 levels] and yet still want half decent looking images, you will need a camera with a knee/slope circuit where you can "sculpt" your highlights in just under that 100 IRE [235] clip that you have set. That is precisely why most broadcast 709 spec camera have knee and clipper circuits. To get as much dynamic range into that 0-100 IRE, 700 millivolts range of the 709 broadcast video signal. Another option. Many Sony cameras offer Cine Gammas and Hypergamma presets, some of these presets are limited to 100 IRE. The 235 8-bit output levels you want. But in most cases, because of these fixed levels, the images will need some grading in post afterward to really look decent.

Probably one of the cheapest cameras that offers you fixed selectable 100 IRE levels in Cine Gamma mode and the ability to set knee, slope and clip levels to 100 IRE in 709 mode and that would come in under $2,000, and yet still deliver pretty decent images in the right hands would be the Sony EX1 and EX3 models.

Look at Alister Chapman's video on these cameras. Especially from about 2:40 onwards when he walks through the various 100 and 109 output levels. The 100 levels being your 235 8-bit levels.

This may also help explain the situation.

https://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/.../CSTGB05-0.pdf

Chris Young

XDCAM EX Gamma Curves and Knee, what they do and which ones to use. - YouTube

[Doug Jensen]

Originally Posted by Chris Clementson

>>> Output range of ***16 - 235***. <<<

All consumer HD cameras are 8-bit 16-235, therefore it is not necessary for manufacturers to advertise that fact. It is a given, unless otherwise stated. Therefore, the $96 Minolta I recommended earlier fits your specifications perfectly.

[Chris Clementson]

All consumer HD cameras are 8-bit 16-235

All the 8-bit camcorders I've used output 0 - 255 natively.

[Chris Clementson]

16-235 are the 8-bit values that are the same levels as 64-940 in 10-bit values. Both ranges are "709 levels". I don't know of any camera released in the 50 or 60 Hz world that doesn't cover all those 16–235 output levels plus more, whether it be an under $2,000 camcorder or a high-end broadcast camcorder.

All of the ones I've used output 0 - 255 natively and there is no way to confine the levels to 16 - 235. If dealing with a video file (not streaming live) you have to run the video through ffmpeg and this is an extra step which takes time.

[Doug Jensen]

Originally Posted by Chris Clementson

All the 8-bit camcorders I've used output 0 - 255 natively.

Which ones? And how are you measuring the live output?

[Chris Clementson]

Which ones?

Three from Canon and one from Sony (AX53)

how are you measuring the live output?

On a scope via HDMI. I wrote a scope program which captures frames using ffmpeg and plots the amplitude of the signal from left to right, just like a Tektronix :) It's calibrated in IRE units (people like to call it "percent" now).

My Canon XF-100 has a master pedestal control which works OK. I revisited the knee control and got it to do passable white limiting, so problem solved. The only problem is that the internal color-bar generator still puts out 0 - 255. Oh well.

I also took some video which was nicely clipped to 16-235 and uploaded it to YouTube, then downloaded it. It came back as 0 - 255, so YouTube DOES screw with your video levels (no big surprise).

[Rainer Listing]

Chris, sorry if I misunderstand, but you seem to be confusing output levels with output scales. For example, you can describe 0,0,0 (black) as either 0 on a 0-255 scale or 16 on a 16-235 scale, it's full black in both cases. If you put 16 on a 0-255 scale, it's grey, on a 16-235 scale 0 is out of range. Eight bit RGB camera output is the same whichever scale is used. It doesn't matter unless you mix them up - in edit conversions are often automatic or easy.

[Rainer Listing]

And just to add, YouTube doesn't change the level - the media identifies the scale used - if you clipped your 0-255 levels to 16-235 YouTube still sees 0-255 - your footage will appear washed out. If you upload full range 16-235, your download from YouTube might be 0-255, but your footage will be fine since it's the same thing.