Camcorder 16-235

Christopher Young · August 27th, 2023, 09:40 PM

Yes, Rainer. I understand what you are saying. I probably haven't explained myself too well. What I am trying to get at is that all delivery of video for TV, BD, DVD and internet delivery should be delivered as 16-235 levels. These are ITU Rec 709 standards, which all of these mediums are designed around.

Most software players will scale levels correctly, as they will interpret the levels from the file they are playing. Some poorly written software players will NOT, which can cause problems. Some players give you a choice between 0-255 and 16-235 as your display preference. See below. This can be a trap for those who are not aware of these settings, as you can inadvertently be using the wrong settings.

Rec. 709 is by far the most common working and delivery color space for most video projects. If you’re creating video for broadcast delivery, or that will be consumed online, then Rec709 is most likely what you need to work and monitor in. The Rec709 gamut is supported by all common display technologies across many devices. Most computer video players know how to deal with Rec709 encoded video, and can display it correctly on an sRGB computer display.

Rather than get involved in long posts back and forth, it's probably best to refer to some very good reference material from highly qualified sources and experienced people. Take the time to read these in depth to get a good understanding of what I am trying to convey. If you don't have the time to read these sources in depth, here are the main takeaways. Always deliver all material as 16-235 / 64-940 (8-bit and 10-bit) and then there is very little chance of your material being displayed incorrectly. I quote from one of the references below.

Chris Young

https://www.thepostprocess.com/2019/...full-vs-video/

https://www.lightillusion.com/data_legal_levels.html

QUOTE"

"Most cameras shoot video level signals not full. Some of these cameras allow for YUV headroom. Check your settings for your camera to understand how your files are created so that you interpret them correctly in your software and use those out of range values.

Make sure that your signal path for monitoring is consistent and matches across software and hardware outputs whether it’s video or data levels.

Files exported for broadcast should be video levels. Most of the time broadcasters require Rec709 ProResHQ 4:2:2 which is video levels.

Files exported for the internet should be video levels. Most codecs that are used for file delivery are video levels, not full. Encoders expect video level files for most delivery formats.

Exporting files using video levels WILL NOT lead to your files looking washed out. Exporting files using full levels WILL NOT make your files look better or more accurate. Even though your computer display is RGB, video level files will look correct on your screen because (my edit: MOST) players will scale the values correctly."

Rainer Listing · August 28th, 2023, 01:37 AM

Whoops - sorry Christopher, I actually was trying to simplify things for Chris C, the OP. No problems whatsoever with any of your comments, I was just hoping to cut through the details.

Noa Put · August 28th, 2023, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Clementson

I'm looking for a camcorder in the under-$2,000 range with just one requirement:

It MUST have a video output range of 8-bit 16-235 (BT.709), otherwise no deal.

All my Panasonic "photo" camera's (gh and s series) have the option to select 3 different luminance levels for 8 or 10 bit recording but as far as I know no handicam with a fixed lens under 2K exist that has a option to select this in the camera menu.

Christopher Young · August 28th, 2023, 04:14 AM

Rainer. My last post was just mainly in reference to yours, to clear up any confusion I may have created re levels. I think the original OP would by now know that there are no camcorders that are specifically locked to 709 levels of 0-100 IRE, which is Black 16 to 235 White on the 8-bit scale, or 64-940 on the 10-bit scale. The only way you can do this internally with a camera is if it has a Paint menu that allows you to set Black levels and White clip limits.

I've been in the broadcast industry, cameraman through editor to TD and trained as a TV engineer. Been a registered SMPTE engineer for well over forty years. This confusion on exactly what levels mean and how they are interpreted has always been one of the biggest bugbears I've run across in training techs, TDs and editors. Basically, if the OP is not prepared to grade the levels that come out of most lower end camcorders, I pretty sure he won't find what he wants. Short of using a Panasonic GH series camera as a video camera. As that will offer him the three following options. There may well be other options available to the OP, but others would have to advise on that.

0-255
16-235
16-255

Chris Young

Doug Jensen · August 28th, 2023, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Clementson

Three from Canon and one from Sony (AX53).

I find that very difficult to believe and I'm skeptical it is correct. But because I ever never used those specific cameras I will say no more, except to stay that It has been my experience that consumer cameras record and output Video levels to ensure that the picture looks correct on consumer televisions.

Doug Jensen · August 28th, 2023, 03:02 PM

Chris, I decided it was worth it to get to the bottom of this question about Video levels vs. Data levels on consumer cameras, so I reach out to my friend Hugo Gaggioni. Hugo is chief technology officer of Sony Imaging Products and Professional Solutions. he joined Sony in 1988, holds several patents and has authored more than 40 technical publications in the areas of video compression, digital filter banks, HDTV, and UHDTV devices and systems. Prior to joining Sony, he worked at RCA Corporation and Bell Communications Research.

Credentials good enough? :-)

Here's what he said: "HDMI connections in consumer video cameras are always in YCC mode (mostly 8 bits , sometimes 10 bits). Therefore the levels are 16-235 (in 8-bit) or 64-940 in 10 bits). There is no Full level in consumer video cameras."

That's what I said before, so with that in mind the previously mentioned $96 Minolta meets all your specifications. If you want to spend a little more for a better camera, Sony has the CX-405 for $230.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1109390-REG/sony_hdr_cx405_hd_camcorder.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801

Noa Put · August 28th, 2023, 04:34 PM

Quote:

That's what I said before, so with that in mind the previously mentioned $96 Minolta meets all your specifications. If you want to spend a little more for a better camera, Sony has the CX-405 for $230.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...2855/KBID/3801

If the output levels are always levels are 16-235 (in 8-bit) then why suggest these cheap camera's since the OP his current canon and sony camera's already output these levels, it only means the way he is measuring the output levels are wrong.

Rainer Listing · August 28th, 2023, 05:04 PM

Yes, he's measuring wrong. Notice also a Lumix FZ2500 (under US$900) lets you select 3 luminance levels. And mobile phones?

Pete Cofrancesco · August 28th, 2023, 05:06 PM

The vast majority of topics have no real purpose other than to debate technical minutia. On another board there was a question about a shotgun mics and turned out at the end of the thread the OP had no plans on buying said mic or solving an actual issue, rather the sole purpose was to use it in an argument on another forum. So if you're hoping to help someone you'll often be disappointed and frustrated at wasting your time.

In this thread it starts out with the bizarre question of looking to buy an 8 bit camcorder only to find it's some nit picking of values that were incorrectly read that has virtually no impact on the real world output of the video.

Rainer Listing · August 28th, 2023, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

If the output levels are always levels are 16-235 (in 8-bit) then why suggest these cheap camera's since the OP his current canon and sony camera's already output these levels, it only means the way he is measuring the output levels are wrong.

Yes.Or rather interpreting wrong. Notice also for example a Lumix FZ2500 (under US$900) lets you select one of 3 luminance levels. And mobile phones?

Doug Jensen · August 28th, 2023, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

If the output levels are always levels are 16-235 (in 8-bit) then why suggest these cheap camera's since the OP his current canon and sony camera's already output these levels, it only means the way he is measuring the output levels are wrong.

Seriously, you're giving me shit for actually answering his question in my very first post? He said he used some other cameras but I have no interest in keeping tracking of which cameras he actually owns, if any. I answered his original question and gave him two of the least expensive options I could find that met both of his specifications. If he want to spend more than that, he is certainly welcome to do so. But he already said no other specifications matter to him. So why spend more than $96?

Why didn't YOU tell him to use the camera you think he already has, rather than just telling us about some unnamed cameras YOU own. Yeah, that was helpful.

Chris Clementson · August 28th, 2023, 11:30 PM

Rainer — a lot of misconceptions in your two posts.

Christopher Young · August 28th, 2023, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Chris, I decided it was worth it to get to the bottom of this question about Video levels vs. Data levels on consumer cameras, so I reach out to my friend Hugo Gaggioni. Hugo is chief technology officer of Sony Imaging Products and Professional Solutions. he joined Sony in 1988, holds several patents and has authored more than 40 technical publications in the areas of video compression, digital filter banks, HDTV, and UHDTV devices and systems. Prior to joining Sony, he worked at RCA Corporation and Bell Communications Research.

Credentials good enough? :-)

Here's what he said: "HDMI connections in consumer video cameras are always in YCC mode (mostly 8 bits , sometimes 10 bits). Therefore the levels are 16-235 (in 8-bit) or 64-940 in 10 bits). There is no Full level in consumer video cameras."

I won't argue with any of that. Other than to say, there are, or were, cameras out there that have delivered illegal black levels below 16. Convergent Design ran into this problem when they started to get complaints that their NanoFlash recorders would suddenly stop recording. What was happening was the auto stop function on the detection of NO signal was cutting in. Camera HDMI levels below 16 were causing this auto stop function to cut in.

I know because I had cameramen blasting the NanoFlash for this reason. So I looked into the problem. In the NanoFlash Video Menu you could set HDMI Rx color to Legal or Full. But the problem still existed as the HDMI chipsets being used obviously wouldn't accept anything under 16 as the display would say NO SRC (no source). In fact, they would cut out at 16. Raise your black levels to 17 and they would record.

If the cameras the original OP is looking at only have HDMI outputs then they should follow the original HDMI specs. But I now know, as did Dan Keaton at CD did back then, that not all cameras are created equal to the specs.

When the HDMI (Silicon Image) set up the HDMI spec, they put down some ground rules. According to Section 6.6 of the HDMI 1.3 Specification document:

"Black and white levels for video components shall be either “Full Range” or “Limited Range.” YCbCr components shall always be Limited Range while RGB components may be either Full Range or Limited Range. While using RGB, Limited Range shall be used for all video formats defined in CEA-861-D, with the exception of VGA (640x480) format, which requires Full Range.

Basically, in YCbCr mode, full range signal (0-255, which it can do) is not allowed and limited range values are specified (16-235 for 8-bit color sources). Initially, analogue sources & displays had something called under- or overshoot which in essence took into account the 1-15 and 236 to 255 values so YCbCr was limited to 16-235."

Chris Young

Chris Clementson · August 29th, 2023, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

All my Panasonic "photo" camera's (gh and s series) have the option to select 3 different luminance levels for 8 or 10 bit recording but as far as I know no handicam with a fixed lens under 2K exist that has a option to select this in the camera menu.

I've been looking at some Panasonic DSLR's and they do have three selectable luminance ranges. Camcorders in the traditional camcorder form factor seem to be fixed at 0 - 255.

Rainer Listing · August 29th, 2023, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Clementson

Rainer — a lot of misconceptions in your two posts.

So straighten me out? Perhaps just focus on one?

August 27th, 2023, 09:40 PM	#16
Christopher Young Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	Re: Camcorder 16-235 Yes, Rainer. I understand what you are saying. I probably haven't explained myself too well. What I am trying to get at is that all delivery of video for TV, BD, DVD and internet delivery should be delivered as 16-235 levels. These are ITU Rec 709 standards, which all of these mediums are designed around. Most software players will scale levels correctly, as they will interpret the levels from the file they are playing. Some poorly written software players will NOT, which can cause problems. Some players give you a choice between 0-255 and 16-235 as your display preference. See below. This can be a trap for those who are not aware of these settings, as you can inadvertently be using the wrong settings. Rec. 709 is by far the most common working and delivery color space for most video projects. If you’re creating video for broadcast delivery, or that will be consumed online, then Rec709 is most likely what you need to work and monitor in. The Rec709 gamut is supported by all common display technologies across many devices. Most computer video players know how to deal with Rec709 encoded video, and can display it correctly on an sRGB computer display. Rather than get involved in long posts back and forth, it's probably best to refer to some very good reference material from highly qualified sources and experienced people. Take the time to read these in depth to get a good understanding of what I am trying to convey. If you don't have the time to read these sources in depth, here are the main takeaways. Always deliver all material as 16-235 / 64-940 (8-bit and 10-bit) and then there is very little chance of your material being displayed incorrectly. I quote from one of the references below. Chris Young https://www.thepostprocess.com/2019/...full-vs-video/ https://www.lightillusion.com/data_legal_levels.html QUOTE" "Most cameras shoot video level signals not full. Some of these cameras allow for YUV headroom. Check your settings for your camera to understand how your files are created so that you interpret them correctly in your software and use those out of range values. Make sure that your signal path for monitoring is consistent and matches across software and hardware outputs whether it’s video or data levels. Files exported for broadcast should be video levels. Most of the time broadcasters require Rec709 ProResHQ 4:2:2 which is video levels. Files exported for the internet should be video levels. Most codecs that are used for file delivery are video levels, not full. Encoders expect video level files for most delivery formats. Exporting files using video levels WILL NOT lead to your files looking washed out. Exporting files using full levels WILL NOT make your files look better or more accurate. Even though your computer display is RGB, video level files will look correct on your screen because (my edit: MOST) players will scale the values correctly." Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Christopher Young; August 27th, 2023 at 11:55 PM.

August 28th, 2023, 01:37 AM	#17
Rainer Listing Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Nowra, Australia Posts: 440	Re: Camcorder 16-235 Whoops - sorry Christopher, I actually was trying to simplify things for Chris C, the OP. No problems whatsoever with any of your comments, I was just hoping to cut through the details.

August 28th, 2023, 04:14 AM	#19
Christopher Young Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	Re: Camcorder 16-235 Rainer. My last post was just mainly in reference to yours, to clear up any confusion I may have created re levels. I think the original OP would by now know that there are no camcorders that are specifically locked to 709 levels of 0-100 IRE, which is Black 16 to 235 White on the 8-bit scale, or 64-940 on the 10-bit scale. The only way you can do this internally with a camera is if it has a Paint menu that allows you to set Black levels and White clip limits. I've been in the broadcast industry, cameraman through editor to TD and trained as a TV engineer. Been a registered SMPTE engineer for well over forty years. This confusion on exactly what levels mean and how they are interpreted has always been one of the biggest bugbears I've run across in training techs, TDs and editors. Basically, if the OP is not prepared to grade the levels that come out of most lower end camcorders, I pretty sure he won't find what he wants. Short of using a Panasonic GH series camera as a video camera. As that will offer him the three following options. There may well be other options available to the OP, but others would have to advise on that. 0-255 16-235 16-255 Chris Young

August 28th, 2023, 03:02 PM	#21
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,450	Re: Camcorder 16-235 Chris, I decided it was worth it to get to the bottom of this question about Video levels vs. Data levels on consumer cameras, so I reach out to my friend Hugo Gaggioni. Hugo is chief technology officer of Sony Imaging Products and Professional Solutions. he joined Sony in 1988, holds several patents and has authored more than 40 technical publications in the areas of video compression, digital filter banks, HDTV, and UHDTV devices and systems. Prior to joining Sony, he worked at RCA Corporation and Bell Communications Research. Credentials good enough? :-) Here's what he said: "HDMI connections in consumer video cameras are always in YCC mode (mostly 8 bits , sometimes 10 bits). Therefore the levels are 16-235 (in 8-bit) or 64-940 in 10 bits). There is no Full level in consumer video cameras." That's what I said before, so with that in mind the previously mentioned $96 Minolta meets all your specifications. If you want to spend a little more for a better camera, Sony has the CX-405 for $230. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1109390-REG/sony_hdr_cx405_hd_camcorder.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801 __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

August 28th, 2023, 05:04 PM	#23
Rainer Listing Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Nowra, Australia Posts: 440	Re: Camcorder 16-235 Yes, he's measuring wrong. Notice also a Lumix FZ2500 (under US$900) lets you select 3 luminance levels. And mobile phones?

August 28th, 2023, 05:06 PM	#24
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: Camcorder 16-235 The vast majority of topics have no real purpose other than to debate technical minutia. On another board there was a question about a shotgun mics and turned out at the end of the thread the OP had no plans on buying said mic or solving an actual issue, rather the sole purpose was to use it in an argument on another forum. So if you're hoping to help someone you'll often be disappointed and frustrated at wasting your time. In this thread it starts out with the bizarre question of looking to buy an 8 bit camcorder only to find it's some nit picking of values that were incorrectly read that has virtually no impact on the real world output of the video.

August 28th, 2023, 11:30 PM	#27
Chris Clementson New Boot Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: West Hollywood, California Posts: 16	Re: Camcorder 16-235 Rainer — a lot of misconceptions in your two posts.