The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread

[Paulo Teixeira]

Originally Posted by Andrew Clark

Yes 1080/60p is definitely the way to go and hopefully will be the "de-facto" standard for future film making. 24p is so .... 1900's!!

Also, I don't think the current line up of video enabled DSLR's will be able to handle this frame rate; they'd probably melt in about a minute of filming.

For sure this will help end 60i. I do see a battle going on between 60p and 24p in the future.

Anyway, the new S35 sized NXCAM will do 1080 60p.

[Andy Wilkinson]

Hi again,

Been "playing around" this morning (nothing client critical) with some 1080p50 shot at 1/50th Sec shutter speed in full manual on the TM900 and then placed on a 1080p50 timeline in Vegas 9E on my Windows 7 64-Bit i7 box, slowed down 50% with a velocity envelope and then rendered to a 1080p25 QuickTime 7 clip.

My intention of importing this clip into my Mac Pro for incorporation into an (existing) FCP project with an XDCAM EX3 1080p25 timeline.

I'm getting quite a bit of motion blur (it's a static shot with the TM900 on a Jobi GorillaPod of a passing model train) and I'm seriously wondering if I should have set the TM900 to 1/100th second shutter speed when the intention is to slow it down like this - unless I've missed a setting in my project/render properties. Anyone got any suggestions gleaned from experience with the TM700/TM900 etc.?

Certainly, clips played back at normal speed done with this workflow (i.e. not slowed down) look really great!

PS, I'll try and get a test clip up on the web today so you can all see.

EDIT: Here you go - notes on the YouTube page.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqTaPtIG5g4

Hi Phil - I see you've replied whilst I sorted out the sample clip just linked above - thanks for the info - will look into it more! Certainly these clips seem to show blended frames! There must be a way/something I'm missing!

[Phil Lee]

Hi

By default Sony Vegas is blending the two frames to obtain 25fps progressive, what you really want is for it to just use every other frame to give you true 25fps.

To resolve this, right click the clip (or clips) on the Timeline, and under properties, set 'undersampling' to 0.5. This will give you true 25fps output with Sony Vegas generating that from every other frame.

I think this should also work if you also slowing down the footage at the same time.

Edit: not sure that does help having tried it. The undersampling trick only works when playing back at the normal rate and wishing to output 25fps, without undersampling you get 2 frames blended to give 25fps which gives some nasty blurring effects.

Edit: If I slow a clip down 50% and output as 25fps, perfect frames, the problem seems to be when outputting at 50p, as Sony Vegas seems to slow to 25fps then up to 50fps by creating extra frames, causing blurring.

The only way I can seem to stop Vegas from creating extra frames by interpolation of frames is to first export the 50% slowed clip as Sony YUV at 25fps, then bring that back to the timeline, make sure it's media properties are set for the clip to Progressive (it came is as interlaced in my test) then when you export at 50fps, it appears to just up to the 50fps rate by doubling frames.

Best Regards

Phil

[Andy Wilkinson]

OK, here is a link to my second Panasonic TM900 1080p50 slow motion/Vegas test. Identical 1080p50 28Mbps footage from the TM900 as in the first test clips posted above except all I've done here is use an undersampling rate (0.5) on each clip and then rendered it out into a 1080p25 QuickTime 7 file (only 3Mbps, i.e. identical to the first test) for quick YouTube uploading. For sure you can see the normal speed stuff is a lot clearer - try pausing it e.g. in the middle (A66 Cumbria) clip and you'll see the cars/lorries are much, much sharper or the end clip and there are no double letters on the overhead motorway signs. However, the slow motion stuff is very "steppy"/unusable now!

Just posting this second test so we can all learn together. I've yet to try Phil's latest suggestion as I have run out of time today (it smells like dinner is now ready!)

YouTube - Panasonic TM900 (1080p50 Slow Motion - 2nd Test)

[Phil Lee]

Hi

Undersampling works when the speed is normal and gives true 25fps by getting Vegas just using every other frame. I've tested this by adding a single frame with some text into the timeline, and if that frame is added as an odd frame number out of the 0-49, when undersampling that frame isn't in the 25fps output. If it is placed in the timeline as an even frame number, it does appear in the output. So Vegas undersamples by taking frame 0, frame 2, frame 4 and so on. Without undersampling, Vegas creates a frame by blending frame 0 and 1, then 2 and 3 and so on, which doesn't look so good.

Slow motion using this trick seems to end up with something equivalent to 12 or so frames per second though. It seems to be doing the speed change first getting 25fps by blending fields, then undersampling that.

Let us know if the trick I think works does indeed.

Regards

Phil

[Jeremy Dallek]

Yeah, the whole undersampling deal makes a huge difference! I'm glad that someone mentioned it in another thread, or I would have been wondering why my footage wasn't as crispy as it should be! Like you said, normal speed at .5 undersampling is clear, half speed with no undersampling (1.0) is clear. For anything between you have to do some math.
I also had some clips for a music video that were performed at 1.5x or 150% speed, and then stretched out to match the normal speed audio, and the undersampling for that gets set at .75. You basically have to figure out what undersampling rate will leave you with the desired number of frames, in your case 25, in mine 30.
So, the clip was recorded at 60 fps, then stretched to 150% of its length giving an effective frame rate of 40 fps, now figure out what portion of that you want left, .75 of 40 fps is 30. so put .75 as the undersampling rate.

[Andy Wilkinson]

It's a lovely sunny day here in England so I've just got back from an hours walk around town with my Panasonic TM900 to test out a few specific things and take a break from the corporate editing I'm doing.

Several things of note.

1. The "fast on" setting on the TM900 is superb - you just open the LCD and you're ready to shoot.
2. It's so nice to carry a light cam/no heavy rucksack over my shoulder!
3. I deliberately shot everything hand-held to see just how good the hybrid optical image stabilisation is.
4. I deliberately shot everything in intelligent Auto (yes I know...!!!) but I want to see where this falls down/how good it really is.
5. I also took a number of shots on full wide then zoomed in on max intelligent zoom (i.e. at 20x which uses 12X optical plus a larger area of the 3 chips, I believe). This setting does not use the totally digital zoom effect (which I'd never use anyway - it's just bound to degrade the image too much!). Again, just testing to see how good the hybrid image stabilsation is hand-held at 20X reach (my initial reaction is fantastic - I'm just about to view the footage on a big screen after typing this!)

I'm hoping to get this test video up on the web sometime in the next few days (if I can, got some filming in the Midlands this week so it just depends). Anyway, keep tuned!

Most notable thing was that not one person batted an eyelid or came up to ask me what I was filming/shooting. I was totally inconspicuous/just another "tourist" - perfect! (The complete opposite happens when I walk round the same area with the EX3 or the 7D with a long lens!)

[Alastair Traill]

I now have a TM900 that I intend to use where my EX3 is too inconvenient or too heavy to use, e.g. on a boom. I am pleased to find that the Infrared extender I use on my EX3 also works on the TM900. I am also pleased to find that the remote can be used to turn the camera on, as well as starting / stopping recording and zooming. This will permit conservation of battery power when nothing is happening.

My major worry at this stage is that I cannot display 1080 50 p clips on my iMac) (FCP 7) unless I convert them in camera to AVCHD first. This involves an extra step in addition to the transcoding that I will have to perform in “Log and Transfer” before editing.

So my question is, am I likely to lose any quality in converting 1080 50p clips to AVCHD using the in-camera conversion?

[Andy Wilkinson]

Following on from my post yesterday, here is the test video that I promised.

YouTube - Panasonic TM900 - Ely in March (Test Video)

See the notes on the YouTube page.

[Sorry Alistair, not got as far as trying the TM900 files on my Mac Pro yet so I'll let others comment on your question - the answer to which I'd also love to know].

[Andy Wilkinson]

Also, here is the original (very first) slow motion test now on Vimeo.

Panasonic TM900 (1080p50 Slow Motion Test) on Vimeo

[Phil Lee]

Hi

A good showcase for the TM900 in the Youtube clip, lots of blue sky as well and can't see any sign of bondi-blue! I might post a link back to that from the forum that bondi-blue gets the most coverage on.

It's a shame YouTube drops the quality somewhat.

The slow motion tests prove how versatile 50p is. It was almost impossible to tell what was slow motion and what wasn't. The train clip didn't look slow motion at all, just passed slower in comparison to the original speed, otherwise the quality look identical.

Shutter speeds are a trade off, if you use faster shutter speeds you'd get clearer frames and so clearer slow motion, but with just 25 frames per second it might start to look juddery. A slow shutter speed around 1/50th gives a blur to fast movement and helps keep things moving more fluid to the viewer at 25fps, which is what they tend to do with film. You might be able get better results by capturing at a faster shutter speed, then applying small amounts of motion blur in Vegas should some slow motion shots look a bit juddery and have better control.

Regards

Phil

[Andy Wilkinson]

Thanks Phil. Yeah, it is a shame it goes through the mangle a bit with YouTube's 1080p. When I get more time I'll do some proper filming with it around Ely, Cambridge etc. (on a tripod of course) and really show what the camera can do in a Vimeo clip etc. Less wobble will also improve codec efficiency and should "up image quality" too - even on YouTube. Raw files are stunning on my big monitors.

You're right. No "bondi blue". We can all now put that debate to bed with the 900 series, for good! Please post that link to that forum!

I fully understand the implications of shutter speed but the main reason I've been active on the getting to know the TM900 and on the 1080p50 editing front is that I've decided to use it for some slow motion shots (along with the EX3 etc.) on a dolly in some corporate work I've got going on this week. I'm wary of using any new kit until I've a good grasp of it's strengths and limitations but I think I am now at that stage with the TM900 - so it's finally time to put it to work!

Still thrilled that I've got it in my kit - and how little it cost (compared to some of the things I lug around!)

Also, I've been thinking about Alistair's question. Now I imagine that if the TM900 converts 1080p50 files at 28Mbps to "Standard" AVCHD in camera then, in the TM900s case that would be at it's 17Mbps 25p format (sadly the TM900 lacks the max 24Mbps option that the AVCHD consortium currently "allows" within the AVCHD format as of now - Can't be long before this is revised now Sony are also in the game of 1080p50). So I guess the question is, does this conversion just extract every other frame and leave it razor sharp - and hopefully 17Mbps is enough to maintain that sharpness - or does it do some kind of reprocessing. [Not tried it so don't know - just thinking out loud].

[Gregory Opach]

Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson

Following on from my post yesterday, here is the test video that I promised.

YouTube - Panasonic TM900 - Ely in March (Test Video)

See the notes on the YouTube page.

[Sorry Alistair, not got as far as trying the TM900 files on my Mac Pro yet so I'll let others comment on your question - the answer to which I'd also love to know].

I read your notes on YouTube page and you mentioned that all shots were in iAuto and yet you went -1 on sharpness and color. On 60p unit (NTSC), when you are in iAuto, dialing or increasing sharpness has no effect on anything, it only works when you are shooting in Manual mode. I just tried it on my unit and can verify this. I was in iAuto, tried -5, 0, and +5 in sharpness and saw no difference, but when I did the same in Manual mode the difference in sharpness was huge.

[Andy Wilkinson]

Thanks Gregory - and welcome to DVinfo! That's something else that I've learnt today! Good job anything important I'm doing with it would only be in Manual mode!

[Claire Watson]

Andy, your video was most interesting for me since I have as yet shot everything exclusively in manual mode, apart from one time when the first thing that stopped me proceeding was that the white balance did it's own thing, and not to my liking. This did not appear to be the case with your video, did you use a 'Scene' mode which allows a fixed WB?

Next, you said you were going to test the 'intelligent Auto' and at first I thought I was seeing the result of this on some stonework near ground level of a strongly back lit building (lack of detail) but then I wondered if this was simply YouTube messing it up somewhat. For myself I decided not to use 'intelligent Auto' as I found it could bring up shady areas but somewhat artificially and the sky was still somewhat over exposed. Where you had the sun behind you or to one side you have nice truly blue sky, yes I also am so pleased not to find any "bondi blue" in my shots.

The hybrid image stabilisation I have found to be at it's best with a slight pan, I think your stationary shots made things too difficult for it, I can never get rid of slight tilt movements when tying to hold the camera completely still and so this is what I do, I make my stationary shots a very slight pan, or use the very lightweight tripod I have for my 5DII. Actually your attempts at this are better than most of mine!

Lastly, I did find the auto exposure shows, a lot of things such as white window frames, the white on the ducks, cannot recall them all right now, but several items I noted were over exposed.

What I find as a compromise between full auto and full manual is to switch to manual, set focus to auto, set up your manual white balance, (never have to move mine if I am always outdoors), and set shutter speed to 1/50th. (for 1080/50P). This leaves iris floating, will do it's own thing (auto exposure) but with the benefit of what you entered in the Picture Adjust (menu > Record setup > (page 8/9) > Exposure). For the record I now use -3 for this "exposure compensation" with the sunny weather we are currently enjoying here in England.

Of course 1/50th shutter and no external ND filter does mean for anything but end of day stuff when light has reduced this must be increased to avoid the iris stopping down to F8 or more and degrading the resolution so what I do is before shooting to quickly dab the Iris button on the screen then if it shows an undesirable F number I go back to shutter and increase speed, check iris again, repeat until happy.

The important thing is to always return to shutter after checking the iris number otherwise the iris will be fixed and not give you auto exposure so after this one final press again on the shutter will clear the screen for shooting, leaving you with the nice histogram to keep an eye on things if you want it.

Anyway that's the way I like to work and it does stop me over exposing since I find the exposure latitude a lot less than the EX1R so I know I do need to work a bit harder with the TM900 when the sun is out.