The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread

Anthony Schrijer · June 12th, 2011, 11:08 AM

When I lock the shutterspeed to 1/50th and let the iris float, I still see that in bright light (sunshine, or sun with reflectingclouds) white parts (windowpains, clouds) have zebrastripes; this means still overexposure in those particular parts …

I do have a feeling that I have to use the combination of iris and shutterspeed to get a correct exposure, because this way the range of exposure-possibilities is bigger. But in this setting I loose the shutterlock, because the shutter is now floating too.
In what circumstances will this become really a problem, not using a locked shutterspeed (1/50th) outdoors?

What I normally do is this:
From full auto switch to manual, set focus to auto, set up the manual white balance, and set shutter speed to 1/50th (for 1080/50P). This leaves iris floating (auto exposure) but with the settings of what you entered in the Picture Adjust (menu > Record setup > Exposure). I now use -3 for this "exposure compensation" in bright light. But this exposure compensation seems not enough.

Andy Wilkinson · June 12th, 2011, 11:58 AM

Hi Anthony,

I do much the same as you in how I set up and operate my TM900's Picture Adjust except I rarely seem to need to go down to -3 on exposure, most of the time it's on -2 when I'm out and about in bright sunny conditions (it really just depends on the scene and what the zebras are showing you - they seem to be pretty accurate). Sure, the TM900 does tend to blow out those things (white window frames etc.) more than I'd like, sometimes.

For the record, I also tend to have my Colour setting at -1, sometimes -2, and Sharpness at -1, but a lot of that is personal preference stuff.

I've found that setting the shutter speed at 1/100th (I'm also using a 1080p50 cam like you of course) is fine for lots of stuff - and may actually be preferable to 1/50th, depending on what I'll do with it in post (e.g. slow motion) and of course a faster shutter speed helps a little when trying to keep the F stop a bit more reasonable. The other thing that comes in handy with cutting the light a little more/helping with glass window pains is my circular polariser (we've established that a linear one will work just fine on this cam too, just a little bit earlier in this thread).

But, bottom line is that getting the exposure spot on with the TM900 can be difficult to get right in strong sunlight/high contrast outdoor lighting conditions, even with the zebras, histogram etc., because it does tend to clip whites a little too easily. No cam is perfect.

It was very interesting to read Keith's comments that his TM900 has a greater colour range and less noise than his TM700. So it looks like some of those marketing claims by Panasonic were true after all. I was initially skeptical when I started this thread - but you can't beat a direct comparison from someone who actually owns both.

Was shooting with my TM900 on the beach in Wells-Next-The-Sea in North Norfolk today (mostly family stuff of the kids). Got some stunning images until the rain arrived....(we need it very badly here in the east of England though!)

I've had this cam a few months now but I'm still amazed at the incredible images such a tiny, lightweight cam can deliver, especially when you've learn't how to get the best out of it.

Colin Rowe · June 12th, 2011, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Schrijer

When I lock the shutterspeed to 1/50th and let the iris float, I still see that in bright light (sunshine, or sun with reflectingclouds) white parts (windowpains, clouds) have zebrastripes; this means still overexposure in those particular parts …

Guys, this is going to happen with any camera, its the same with my EX1, and many more, far more professional cameras. You will never get perfect exposure across your scene. You can only expose on the majority of the scene, or in most cases, the subject matter.
With strong sunlight behind you, taking a wide shot that includes a fair proportion of sky, everything can be exposed to a reasonable level. There is no way on earth that you can expose for your subject and not have blown out whites somewhere in the scene If you expose correctely for the whites, the rest of the scene will be under exposed. Check out a football match or similar on your TV. The game/event is taking place on a very sunny afternoon, the wide shot will show half the pitch correctly exposed, the other half shaded by the stand and underexposed. Cameras simply dont see things the way we do.
Still loving the TM900

Anthony Schrijer · June 12th, 2011, 01:25 PM

Andy and Colin

Thanks for your answers. I asked this because maybe I oversee a setting, but now I think I don't.

You are right, you cannot have all the right exposures in one scene. I have to try a few combinations of settings to get the best out off this camera. A wonderfull camera ...

Keith Moreau · June 12th, 2011, 01:32 PM

I too have found that whites are blown out by the TM900 in auto mode, even with picture exposure adjust way down to -2 or even -3 in very high contrast scenes. The way I've gotten around that is to use the intelligent contrast and even use a -1 or -2 settings there, and also reduce the color saturation and sharpness (turning down sharpness improves the image quite a bit for me to match other more expensive camcorders) but I think this works only in full auto mode. There are also problems with Intelligent Contrast Mode, as I've found a bit from grading some scenes where I had used it. Jury is still out with this though, I'll keep everybody posted. I have a feeling that with careful RGB curve application it might be usable. Also, I think the auto exposure is not necessarily that smooth, so you have that to contend with flickering for shots where the brightness may vary over time. The flickering I'm seeing might have been shutter speed changes though, not sure.

As Colin suggests, this is how cameras have worked forever. In high contrast scenes something has to give, Usually you expose for the subject, what is most important. You might be able to bring other details out in post with color grading, the TM900 seems to preserve a fair amount of detail in the shadows, so keeping exposure low might work out. The highlights clip like other small chip camcorders, not too gracefully so when you clip it's really apparent and not that 'filmic.' High end camcorders like the Red Epic are now shooting a type of 'HDR' where there is one normal exposure made per frame, then another at the same time at a much lower exposure level. If the highlights are blown out, you can bring back highlight details in post with special RED software. Someday consumer camcorders in the TM900 price range will be able to do this, I'm positive. For now though there are compromises.

Anthony, have you tried setting the exposure adjust way down, like to -5 and see if the auto mode keeps the highlights from being clipped? I think this would work. The downside is that you'd possible have a lot of 'crushed' blacks, where there is just no detail to raise. However if you're going for a high contrast look this might work. Has anybody done any color / luminosity tests with this camcorder in the various modes of picture adjust, intelligent contrast? If I get time I'm planning too, but if there's one out there that shows the latitude range already, please post a link here.

Thanks for the great conversations about this amazing little camcorder.

Anthony Schrijer · June 12th, 2011, 01:49 PM

Keith

I saw the clipping clearly in my histogram, one nice small band to right of the diagram.
I will try to lower the exposure setting more than I did, and see what happens with the clipping and the rest of the picture.

Mark Rosenzweig · June 12th, 2011, 03:45 PM

"What I normally do is this:
From full auto switch to manual, set focus to auto, set up the manual white balance, and set shutter speed to 1/50th (for 1080/50P). This leaves iris floating (auto exposure) but with the settings of what you entered in the Picture Adjust (menu > Record setup > Exposure). I now use -3 for this "exposure compensation" in bright light. But this exposure compensation seems not enough."

I find in bright light it is necessary to go full manual. EV compensation is NOT enough when the shutter is fixed at a relatively slow speed.

I do what you do except you omit the last step: set iris. You must do this after shutter. If you try to set shutter after iris, it will default iris to auto.

So, you can set shutter (to 1/50th or 1/60th) and iris (in that order) to eliminate zebra stripes.

This video was done in full manual mode because of the bright light (midday sun). No blown spots because I eliminated zebras using the technique above (shot at 1/60th fixed).

Roger Shealy · June 12th, 2011, 06:55 PM

I have mine set with exposure -2 in manual and if I'm in a hurry and indoors, I flip it to iA; if I'm outdoors and its bright I flip it to manual (-2) and adjust as needed. I'd rather slightly underexpose than overexpose.

Anthony Schrijer · June 13th, 2011, 05:01 AM

Mark

Thank you for your information, I will use your settings.

But if you use your camera as a "moving eye" how do you cope with the changing light situations in the landscape/scene, if you fix your iris too (and not let it float)?

Colin Rowe · June 13th, 2011, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Shealy

I have mine set with exposure -2 in manual and if I'm in a hurry and indoors, I flip it to iA; if I'm outdoors and its bright I flip it to manual (-2) and adjust as needed. I'd rather slightly underexpose than overexpose.

Roger. The exposure compensation is only active when the iris is left floating in manual mode, as Mark describes above. Or at least that is how I see it. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Anthony Schrijer · June 13th, 2011, 07:00 AM

Colin and Roger

In the iA mode, you can not even select, in the menu, the Exposure compensation setting.
So iA is a completely automatic mode (idiots mode ...).

You can set the Exposure compensation in the manual mode, but it has no influence on the iA mode as far as I can see.

Anthony Schrijer · June 13th, 2011, 07:21 AM

Mark

With Exposure compensation -3 and "sharp" light (clouded sky) in a garden, I can use the whole range of iris settings from Open till F16. This range is enough for all the light circumstances outdoors, as far as I can see. I rely fully on the histogram (clipping) and the zebra stripes. I start to measure the brightest part in the planned pan and set shutterspeed to 1/50 and set the iris so that the histogram shows no clipping and zebra stripes do not appear.
Than, with this full manual settings, I make a slow planned pan in the choosen scenes.

Roger Shealy · June 13th, 2011, 08:08 AM

Anthony,

I use manual mode 90% of the time. When I switch to iA mode I am intentionally switching to "idiot mode" to catch something spontaneous or way out of wack with the manual settings. Better to get a good exposure with shutter speed faster than ideal than miss the moment while you fight the menu's.

iA is the "video hyperspace" button you try not to use, but it sometimes can save your tail in a tight spot.

Anthony Schrijer · June 13th, 2011, 09:11 AM

Roger

An alternative for the "idiot mode" is to set the shutterspeed and iris on auto. Compared to the iA mode you have the advantage of a manual Focus, White balance and Exposure compensation.
The disadvantage is that the shutterspeed may get high, but in which situation is that a real disadvantage (by the way that was my original question)?

Geoffrey Cox · June 13th, 2011, 02:38 PM

Anthony, fast shutter speeds can look great with fairly static shots - really sharp - but when you get movement in the frame it takes on an unnatural stuttery look (I've made this mistake trying to compensate for very bright conditions) like the opening of Saving Private Ryan. This can be good for sport for instance as the camera can capture the detail of rapid movement but in most other situations it looks bad and can be quite difficult to watch - even the swing of an arm looks weird. 50th or perhaps 100th is about as high as I'd go with moving scenes but for static scenes the skies the limit really.

June 12th, 2011, 11:08 AM	#226
Anthony Schrijer Regular Crew Join Date: May 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 30	Exposure settings When I lock the shutterspeed to 1/50th and let the iris float, I still see that in bright light (sunshine, or sun with reflectingclouds) white parts (windowpains, clouds) have zebrastripes; this means still overexposure in those particular parts … I do have a feeling that I have to use the combination of iris and shutterspeed to get a correct exposure, because this way the range of exposure-possibilities is bigger. But in this setting I loose the shutterlock, because the shutter is now floating too. In what circumstances will this become really a problem, not using a locked shutterspeed (1/50th) outdoors? What I normally do is this: From full auto switch to manual, set focus to auto, set up the manual white balance, and set shutter speed to 1/50th (for 1080/50P). This leaves iris floating (auto exposure) but with the settings of what you entered in the Picture Adjust (menu > Record setup > Exposure). I now use -3 for this "exposure compensation" in bright light. But this exposure compensation seems not enough.

June 12th, 2011, 11:58 AM	#227
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread Hi Anthony, I do much the same as you in how I set up and operate my TM900's Picture Adjust except I rarely seem to need to go down to -3 on exposure, most of the time it's on -2 when I'm out and about in bright sunny conditions (it really just depends on the scene and what the zebras are showing you - they seem to be pretty accurate). Sure, the TM900 does tend to blow out those things (white window frames etc.) more than I'd like, sometimes. For the record, I also tend to have my Colour setting at -1, sometimes -2, and Sharpness at -1, but a lot of that is personal preference stuff. I've found that setting the shutter speed at 1/100th (I'm also using a 1080p50 cam like you of course) is fine for lots of stuff - and may actually be preferable to 1/50th, depending on what I'll do with it in post (e.g. slow motion) and of course a faster shutter speed helps a little when trying to keep the F stop a bit more reasonable. The other thing that comes in handy with cutting the light a little more/helping with glass window pains is my circular polariser (we've established that a linear one will work just fine on this cam too, just a little bit earlier in this thread). But, bottom line is that getting the exposure spot on with the TM900 can be difficult to get right in strong sunlight/high contrast outdoor lighting conditions, even with the zebras, histogram etc., because it does tend to clip whites a little too easily. No cam is perfect. It was very interesting to read Keith's comments that his TM900 has a greater colour range and less noise than his TM700. So it looks like some of those marketing claims by Panasonic were true after all. I was initially skeptical when I started this thread - but you can't beat a direct comparison from someone who actually owns both. Was shooting with my TM900 on the beach in Wells-Next-The-Sea in North Norfolk today (mostly family stuff of the kids). Got some stunning images until the rain arrived....(we need it very badly here in the east of England though!) I've had this cam a few months now but I'm still amazed at the incredible images such a tiny, lightweight cam can deliver, especially when you've learn't how to get the best out of it. __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

June 12th, 2011, 01:25 PM	#229
Anthony Schrijer Regular Crew Join Date: May 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 30	Re: The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread Andy and Colin Thanks for your answers. I asked this because maybe I oversee a setting, but now I think I don't. You are right, you cannot have all the right exposures in one scene. I have to try a few combinations of settings to get the best out off this camera. A wonderfull camera ...

June 12th, 2011, 01:32 PM	#230
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	Re: The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread I too have found that whites are blown out by the TM900 in auto mode, even with picture exposure adjust way down to -2 or even -3 in very high contrast scenes. The way I've gotten around that is to use the intelligent contrast and even use a -1 or -2 settings there, and also reduce the color saturation and sharpness (turning down sharpness improves the image quite a bit for me to match other more expensive camcorders) but I think this works only in full auto mode. There are also problems with Intelligent Contrast Mode, as I've found a bit from grading some scenes where I had used it. Jury is still out with this though, I'll keep everybody posted. I have a feeling that with careful RGB curve application it might be usable. Also, I think the auto exposure is not necessarily that smooth, so you have that to contend with flickering for shots where the brightness may vary over time. The flickering I'm seeing might have been shutter speed changes though, not sure. As Colin suggests, this is how cameras have worked forever. In high contrast scenes something has to give, Usually you expose for the subject, what is most important. You might be able to bring other details out in post with color grading, the TM900 seems to preserve a fair amount of detail in the shadows, so keeping exposure low might work out. The highlights clip like other small chip camcorders, not too gracefully so when you clip it's really apparent and not that 'filmic.' High end camcorders like the Red Epic are now shooting a type of 'HDR' where there is one normal exposure made per frame, then another at the same time at a much lower exposure level. If the highlights are blown out, you can bring back highlight details in post with special RED software. Someday consumer camcorders in the TM900 price range will be able to do this, I'm positive. For now though there are compromises. Anthony, have you tried setting the exposure adjust way down, like to -5 and see if the auto mode keeps the highlights from being clipped? I think this would work. The downside is that you'd possible have a lot of 'crushed' blacks, where there is just no detail to raise. However if you're going for a high contrast look this might work. Has anybody done any color / luminosity tests with this camcorder in the various modes of picture adjust, intelligent contrast? If I get time I'm planning too, but if there's one out there that shows the latitude range already, please post a link here. Thanks for the great conversations about this amazing little camcorder.

June 12th, 2011, 01:49 PM	#231
Anthony Schrijer Regular Crew Join Date: May 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 30	Re: The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread Keith I saw the clipping clearly in my histogram, one nice small band to right of the diagram. I will try to lower the exposure setting more than I did, and see what happens with the clipping and the rest of the picture.

June 12th, 2011, 03:45 PM	#232
Mark Rosenzweig Trustee Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: New Haven, CT Posts: 1,004	Re: The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread "What I normally do is this: From full auto switch to manual, set focus to auto, set up the manual white balance, and set shutter speed to 1/50th (for 1080/50P). This leaves iris floating (auto exposure) but with the settings of what you entered in the Picture Adjust (menu > Record setup > Exposure). I now use -3 for this "exposure compensation" in bright light. But this exposure compensation seems not enough." I find in bright light it is necessary to go full manual. EV compensation is NOT enough when the shutter is fixed at a relatively slow speed. I do what you do except you omit the last step: set iris. You must do this after shutter. If you try to set shutter after iris, it will default iris to auto. So, you can set shutter (to 1/50th or 1/60th) and iris (in that order) to eliminate zebra stripes. This video was done in full manual mode because of the bright light (midday sun). No blown spots because I eliminated zebras using the technique above (shot at 1/60th fixed). A Short Trip to NYC using the Panasonic TM900 on Vimeo

June 12th, 2011, 06:55 PM	#233
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	Re: The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread I have mine set with exposure -2 in manual and if I'm in a hurry and indoors, I flip it to iA; if I'm outdoors and its bright I flip it to manual (-2) and adjust as needed. I'd rather slightly underexpose than overexpose.

June 13th, 2011, 05:01 AM	#234
Anthony Schrijer Regular Crew Join Date: May 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 30	Re: The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread Mark Thank you for your information, I will use your settings. But if you use your camera as a "moving eye" how do you cope with the changing light situations in the landscape/scene, if you fix your iris too (and not let it float)?

June 13th, 2011, 07:00 AM	#236
Anthony Schrijer Regular Crew Join Date: May 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 30	Re: The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread Colin and Roger In the iA mode, you can not even select, in the menu, the Exposure compensation setting. So iA is a completely automatic mode (idiots mode ...). You can set the Exposure compensation in the manual mode, but it has no influence on the iA mode as far as I can see.

June 13th, 2011, 07:21 AM	#237
Anthony Schrijer Regular Crew Join Date: May 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 30	Re: The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread Mark With Exposure compensation -3 and "sharp" light (clouded sky) in a garden, I can use the whole range of iris settings from Open till F16. This range is enough for all the light circumstances outdoors, as far as I can see. I rely fully on the histogram (clipping) and the zebra stripes. I start to measure the brightest part in the planned pan and set shutterspeed to 1/50 and set the iris so that the histogram shows no clipping and zebra stripes do not appear. Than, with this full manual settings, I make a slow planned pan in the choosen scenes.

June 13th, 2011, 08:08 AM	#238
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	Re: The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread Anthony, I use manual mode 90% of the time. When I switch to iA mode I am intentionally switching to "idiot mode" to catch something spontaneous or way out of wack with the manual settings. Better to get a good exposure with shutter speed faster than ideal than miss the moment while you fight the menu's. iA is the "video hyperspace" button you try not to use, but it sometimes can save your tail in a tight spot.

June 13th, 2011, 09:11 AM	#239
Anthony Schrijer Regular Crew Join Date: May 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 30	Re: The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread Roger An alternative for the "idiot mode" is to set the shutterspeed and iris on auto. Compared to the iA mode you have the advantage of a manual Focus, White balance and Exposure compensation. The disadvantage is that the shutterspeed may get high, but in which situation is that a real disadvantage (by the way that was my original question)? Last edited by Anthony Schrijer; June 13th, 2011 at 02:08 PM.

June 13th, 2011, 02:38 PM	#240
Geoffrey Cox Major Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Huddersfield, UK Posts: 469	Re: The Panasonic TM900 Users Thread Anthony, fast shutter speeds can look great with fairly static shots - really sharp - but when you get movement in the frame it takes on an unnatural stuttery look (I've made this mistake trying to compensate for very bright conditions) like the opening of Saving Private Ryan. This can be good for sport for instance as the camera can capture the detail of rapid movement but in most other situations it looks bad and can be quite difficult to watch - even the swing of an arm looks weird. 50th or perhaps 100th is about as high as I'd go with moving scenes but for static scenes the skies the limit really.