How good is the HDC-TM700 (for professional use)

Floris van Eck · January 8th, 2011, 11:35 AM

I have tested out many different conversions. The rewrapped quicktime from ClipWrap really stutter in both FCP and PPro CS5. I also tried CineForm 422 and ProRes, both LT and 422. The ProRes 422 file sizes are around 25-33% bigger than the ProRes 422 LT file sizes. I settled with 422 at the end, because I read somewhere that the compression matches the pacing of that of ProRes 422, creating a smoother image. I also read Apple's ProRes July 2009 whitepaper, and ProRes 422 is less prone to generation loss. Cineform files are around 25% smaller than ProRes 422 files, but I need to buy additional software to use them longer than the demo period. And as I don't see big differences between CineForm 422 and ProRes 422, I rather spend my $129-$499 on something else. ProRes 422 files are around 10x the size of the AVCHD files.

My workflow is as follows:
- Transfer SD Card to computer;
- Use A Better Finder Rename to rename the files, according to sequence number, date and time;
- Use AME watch folder to transcode the renamed files from AVCHD 28mbps to ProRes 422 .mov files;
- Archive the original MTS files
- Import the ProRes 422 files into FCP/PPro CS5

Too bad you can't really preview the .MTS files on a Mac, otherwise I would prefer a log and transfer first to get rid of excess footage in my clips and then convert to ProRes 422.

I really hope the AVCHD 28MBPS 1080p50 / 1080p60 will be made official soon since Sony now also uses it.

Dave Jervis · January 11th, 2011, 09:14 PM

I don't feel I can advise you at all on this subject Floris.....

With Windows 7 on an i7 PC running Edius Neo 2.5 you just preview .MTS as you would any other video file, and Edius just opens and edits them smoothly in their native format (in my case, up to 4 video tracks at once). (....It's not my intention to sound smug, I'm just trying to explain why I can't offer any advice......)

Good luck with finding your best workflow......

dave

Wacharapong Chiowanich · January 12th, 2011, 07:51 PM

You can preview .mts files on your Mac using the freeware "Movist" (search for it in this forum). You may have some issues with the playback sound but otherwise the player will do fine without having to rewrap files or anything. It can't play.m2t files, though.

Melvin Feliciano · January 13th, 2011, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floris van Eck

Too bad you can't really preview the .MTS files on a Mac, otherwise I would prefer a log and transfer first to get rid of excess footage in my clips and then convert to ProRes 422.

I have been using VLC on the Mac to playback native mts files from the TM700 and it works great. I also use a Panasonic Blu Ray player to play back clips directly from the SD card with no issues.

Floris van Eck · January 14th, 2011, 10:09 AM

Hello Melvin, Wacharapong, thank you for your replies.

I also use VLC but the 1080p50 files are not playing back smoothly. I have a 2006 Mac Pro with 12GB Ram and an ATI 1900 graphics card. Inside PPro, they playback just fine.

Maybe a new iMac or Mac Pro will solve my problems but I am trying to buy a new computer somewhere in the second half of 2011/early 2012 (after Lion) is released and I know more about CS6 and FCS 2011 and what they need in order to get the max out of the system (i.e. CUDA card etc.).

Final Cut Pro doesn't support the 1080p50 format yet. What I would like to do is do a log and transfer first before I do a transcode so I can get rid of all excess material. Call it housekeeping.

I will try Movista... sound like a good tool.

Paul Reynolds · March 19th, 2011, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floris van Eck

How well will this camera be suited for this professional shooting? I looked at some raw native footage and it looked pretty good to my eyes. I put it into Premiere Pro CS5 and it played back without problems. However, I would like to see how the codec holds when it is really put to the test (and in Low Light).

I currently own a Canon XL-H1 with an Audio Technica wireless system, videolight and Rode NTG-2 / NT3 microphones. However, I notice that the size of the whole kit is large and bulky, so there are a lot of things I cannot shoot. I also have a Panasonic traveller cam with AVCHD lite movie mode and it beats my Canon XL-H1 in low-light. It simply sees where my Canon XL-H1 cannot see anymore.

So I have been thinking lately and I am considering smaller and cheaper cams because technology simply moves to fast and I don't want to invest $7,000 and upwards in a new cam all the time. I shoot documentaries about people's lives that end up on DVD and the web, not in the cinema. I do a lot of interviews, and I like the idea to have two or more camera's setup so I have more editing options and can focus more on the interview. And to be honest, the quality of these consumer cams is really impressive nowadays. And I like these small cams more and more because you can get into small spaces, mount them on your bike etcetera... all things you can't do easily with a Canon XL-H1 size camera.

My main questions are:
- How well do the manual controls work
- Is it easy to convert 1080p50 footage to 1080p25 (because the customer can't view 1080p50 and I have read that the vertical resolution and motion is superior in the p50 mode.
(I currently use a non HD & can't imagine using anything but a firewire & this does not have that vconnection)
- How good is the cinema mode; do you lose manual controls in this mode?
- How good is the LCD for focussing? What options assist focus?
- Is the footage easy to grade and mix with the footage of other cams?
- How good is the sensivity in low-light?
- Rolling Shutter?
- Can you create in camera custom presets / profiles with settings like sharpening/color/saturation etc.)?

I am also looking at DSLR camera's but there are some things I dislike about them (4GB file size limit, focussing, artifacts, rolling shutter).

All feedback is greatly appreciated.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am looking for a small but high quality HD videocam for a 10 week vacation & this one looks good.
However I have some questions that maybe the experts here can answer (my first post).
- How do you get footage onto your computer for editing without a firewire?
(I current use a non HD cam with firewire & can't imagine using anything else & this does not have a firewire port)
- 1080p50? Can I shoot in this & edit & watch on any TV, esp if I burn the vid onto a dvd?
- What is the minimum I will need in a computer to edit?
- What editing software works well with this, or I guess any HD cam? (Currently using non HD with Pinnacle)

Finally, are there any other cameras I should consider?
I am looking for the highest quality vid possible in a small HD cam.

Andy Wilkinson · March 19th, 2011, 04:18 PM

Hi Paul and welcome to DVinfo.

You can use a USB lead to download clips from the TM700s internal memory (or if the clips are selected to be saved on a SDHC card in the TM - which stands for Twin Memory I'm told) then just put that SD card into a USB card reader, for example.

Firewire/IE1394 is not really seen anymore in the post HDV camera world - and some would say just as well. Many cameras got their Firewire ports expensively "fried" by incorrect connection to a PC when the camera was "live" (never happened to me when I used HDV but I was ultra careful).

28Mbps 1080p50 (or 1080p60 for those in some parts of the world) is going to need a pretty fast PC, no two ways about it - BUT - until you get there the cam will shoot in a more regular AVCHD format (1080p at 17Mbps) - which whilst not earth shattering in stunning visual clarity from this cam is more widely supported by most recent NLE programs. AVCHD is still a bit of a pig to edit through if you try and do it on anything but a pretty reasonable, recent PC. A lot depends on how complex your edits might be. I'm editing 1080p50 with a similar but newer TM900 on a 2010 Windows 7 64 Bit Intel i7 box with a good amount of RAM and a 2 TB internal RAID 0 for media and it's certainly a LOT more taxing than HDV ever was on a lesser PC - just as well I'm only doing pretty simple edits (in Vegas 9E) with this cam at the moment (as I've yet to incorporate it into my commercial workflow in a serious way, which is 90% Mac Pro/FCP based anyway).

Other cams to consider are the newer Panasonic TM900, SD900 etc. or the new Sony CX700 and the new Canon HFG10, the latter two a lot more expensive - each have their strengths and weaknesses, depending on your needs. Lots of info on all these cams in various forum sections on DVinfo. Time to start reading and searching around on here and let us know if you have any more questions!

Paul Reynolds · March 19th, 2011, 05:23 PM

Thanks for the quick reply.

I have no interest in 3D or 3D Compatability but still want the highest quality available in a small camera.
Is the 3D thing the main advantage of the Panasonics you mentioned over others?

A quick search showed I can access these prices;
- HDC-TM700,,,,$799
- Panasonic HDC-HS250....$599 (Reg $1199)....older version? dis/advantages from TM-700
- Canon VIXIA High Definition 32GB Hard Drive Camcorder (HFS20)...$699 (Reg $949)

Couldn't quickly find prices on the others you mentioned but wondering about the ones I did find & the discounts being offered.
Are they older models & do they offer anything less or more than the few you listed?

Les Wilson · March 19th, 2011, 08:29 PM

I think for $800, the TM-700 is best in class. 3-chips, 60p at 28MBS. Manual ring. 32GB internal memory with rollover to SDHC....peaking....histogram

Paulo Teixeira · March 20th, 2011, 03:35 AM

You can actually get the SDT750 for $750 at Amazon. It has an updated stabilizer over the TM700 and also comes with the 3D lens. If you can sell that lens on EBAY for at least $150, you're essentially getting the SDT750 for only $600 or even less if you can sell the 3D lens for more than $150.

This deal will not last long.

Paul Reynolds · March 20th, 2011, 10:04 AM

I am in Canada & amazon.ca doesn't show this.

Would the computer below run a full HD editing software package with the Panasonic 32GB High Definition Flash Camcorder (HDCTM700K) ($799 at Future Shop)
If so, I can get both of this for $1200 & then would need only a good editing package. I am currently using SD & an old Pinnacle package. Any suggestions for an HD upgrade for an editing software package if this would work?
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Ian Sanders · February 7th, 2012, 09:47 AM

Hi, Just found this thread and have a simple(ish) question.
Is it better to shoot in 1080/50p (28 MBS) and convert to 25p or simply shoot in 1080/25p (17 MBS).
Does the 50fps quoted higher bit rate generate a better quality image than the 25fps lower bit rate?

Given my current output is bluray i am not sure whether I need to shoot in 1080/50p other than to archive for a time when it is more useful.

Any help in de-misting this issue for me will be greatly appreciated.

Ian

Graham Hickling · February 9th, 2012, 10:53 PM

Ian, I held off answering this, because I have wondered the same thing ... however since no-one else has replied yet, let me take a stab at it.

You ask about "better" in the context of datarate, so I assume you are primarily wondering about the quality of the footage. My guess would be that 50P at 28Mbps might on average be marginally better than 25P at 17Mbps, but that may well depend on the particular subject matter (level of detail, motion, etc).

There are some other considerations though ... and here is why I usually shoot 60P (I'm in the States):

1) future-proofing (as you mentioned).

2) option to produce 1080i: playable on all current devices with better motion rendition than 25P for sports etc. (Have said that, I NEVER use 1080i myself).

3) option to resize down to 720P60, which is within the BluRay spec, and which I can match with the 720P60 produced by my GH2 and HMC40. (I do use this, all the time).

3a) option to recompose the image, if needed, during the process of down-rezzing to 720P. For example, I did this recently to improve some poorly-composed footage of high-speed skiing.

Just my $0.02. Interested in what other might have to say....

March 19th, 2011, 04:18 PM	#52
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: How good is the HDC-TM700 (for professional use) Hi Paul and welcome to DVinfo. You can use a USB lead to download clips from the TM700s internal memory (or if the clips are selected to be saved on a SDHC card in the TM - which stands for Twin Memory I'm told) then just put that SD card into a USB card reader, for example. Firewire/IE1394 is not really seen anymore in the post HDV camera world - and some would say just as well. Many cameras got their Firewire ports expensively "fried" by incorrect connection to a PC when the camera was "live" (never happened to me when I used HDV but I was ultra careful). 28Mbps 1080p50 (or 1080p60 for those in some parts of the world) is going to need a pretty fast PC, no two ways about it - BUT - until you get there the cam will shoot in a more regular AVCHD format (1080p at 17Mbps) - which whilst not earth shattering in stunning visual clarity from this cam is more widely supported by most recent NLE programs. AVCHD is still a bit of a pig to edit through if you try and do it on anything but a pretty reasonable, recent PC. A lot depends on how complex your edits might be. I'm editing 1080p50 with a similar but newer TM900 on a 2010 Windows 7 64 Bit Intel i7 box with a good amount of RAM and a 2 TB internal RAID 0 for media and it's certainly a LOT more taxing than HDV ever was on a lesser PC - just as well I'm only doing pretty simple edits (in Vegas 9E) with this cam at the moment (as I've yet to incorporate it into my commercial workflow in a serious way, which is 90% Mac Pro/FCP based anyway). Other cams to consider are the newer Panasonic TM900, SD900 etc. or the new Sony CX700 and the new Canon HFG10, the latter two a lot more expensive - each have their strengths and weaknesses, depending on your needs. Lots of info on all these cams in various forum sections on DVinfo. Time to start reading and searching around on here and let us know if you have any more questions! __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

March 19th, 2011, 05:23 PM	#53
Paul Reynolds Tourist Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 3	Re: How good is the HDC-TM700 (for professional use) Thanks for the quick reply. I have no interest in 3D or 3D Compatability but still want the highest quality available in a small camera. Is the 3D thing the main advantage of the Panasonics you mentioned over others? A quick search showed I can access these prices; - HDC-TM700,,,,$799 - Panasonic HDC-HS250....$599 (Reg $1199)....older version? dis/advantages from TM-700 - Canon VIXIA High Definition 32GB Hard Drive Camcorder (HFS20)...$699 (Reg $949) Couldn't quickly find prices on the others you mentioned but wondering about the ones I did find & the discounts being offered. Are they older models & do they offer anything less or more than the few you listed?

March 19th, 2011, 08:29 PM	#54
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: How good is the HDC-TM700 (for professional use) I think for $800, the TM-700 is best in class. 3-chips, 60p at 28MBS. Manual ring. 32GB internal memory with rollover to SDHC....peaking....histogram

March 20th, 2011, 03:35 AM	#55
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	Re: How good is the HDC-TM700 (for professional use) You can actually get the SDT750 for $750 at Amazon. It has an updated stabilizer over the TM700 and also comes with the 3D lens. If you can sell that lens on EBAY for at least $150, you're essentially getting the SDT750 for only $600 or even less if you can sell the 3D lens for more than $150. This deal will not last long. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

March 20th, 2011, 10:04 AM	#56
Paul Reynolds Tourist Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 3	Re: How good is the HDC-TM700 (for professional use) I am in Canada & amazon.ca doesn't show this. Would the computer below run a full HD editing software package with the Panasonic 32GB High Definition Flash Camcorder (HDCTM700K) ($799 at Future Shop) If so, I can get both of this for $1200 & then would need only a good editing package. I am currently using SD & an old Pinnacle package. Any suggestions for an HD upgrade for an editing software package if this would work? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Compaq Presario AMD Athlon II Quad Core 640 Desktop Computer (CQ5726F) - English Model #: CQ5726F WebID: 10161107 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regular Price: $549.99 Discount -$150.00 Sale Price $399.99 Sale Ends:March 20, 2011 Features & Specs Accessories Compare Customer Reviews Special Offers The Compaq CQ5726F desktop PC delivers outstanding Quad Core performance thanks to an AMD Athlon II 640 processor and 4GB DDR3 system memory. A large 750GB hard drive provides ample room for storage, while the Dual Layer DVD drive with LightScribe lets you back up your data to DVD, burn videos, and even create your own customized disc labels. Base Features Processor Type AMD Athlon II Quad Core 640 Processor Speed 3.0 GHz Processor Cores 4 RAM 4 GB PC3-10600 DDR3 SDRAM Hard Drive Capacity 750 GB Hard Drive Speed (Revolutions Per Minut 7200 RPM Optical Drives Super Multi LightScribe DVD Burner Graphics NVIDIA GeForce 6150 SE Pre-loaded Operating System Windows 7 Home Premium (64-Bit) Graphics Dedicated Video Memory No Shared Video Memory No TV Tuner No Video Memory Up to 1919 MB Display HDCP Compliant Not Applicable Native Screen Resolution Not Applicable Screen Size/Type Not Applicable Audio Audio Output 6 Speaker Configurable with up to 5.1 Surround Sound Capabilities Digital Input No Digital Output No Integrated Microphone No Line Out Yes Line-In input Yes Microphone Input Yes Sound Card NVIDIA nForce MCP61P Speaker Wattage Not Applicable Speakers No Networking Ethernet Port 10/100 Base-T Integrated Bluetooth No Integrated WiFi No Inputs/Outputs Card Reader 6-in-1 Memory Card Reader Component Output No Composite Output No DVI Output No E-SATA No FireWire (IEEE 1394) No HDMI No Keyboard Compaq USB Keyboard Modem No Mouse Compaq USB Optical Mouse Remote No S-Video Output No USB 2.0 2 - Front; 4 - Back VGA Output Yes Webcam No Computing Features Available AGP Slots Not Applicable Available Hard Drive Bays 1 Internal 3.5" (Occupied) Available Memory Slots 2 Total (Occupied) Available Optical Bays 2 External 5.25" (Occupied) Available PCI Slots 1 PCI (Available) Available PCI-E Slots 1 PCI E x16 (Available); 2 PCI E x 1 (2 Available) Energy Star Qualified No Power Supply Information Not Available Processor Cache 2 MB L2 Removable Storage No System Bus 1000 MHz Software Loaded Software 1 Cyberlink DVD Suite Deluxe Loaded Software 2 HP Support Assistant Loaded Software 3 HP Setup Manager Loaded Software 4 Operating System Language English Product Features Tower Depth 42.85 cm Tower Height 38.38 cm Tower Width 16.61 cm Tower Weight 4.99 kg Warranty Labour 1 Year(s) Warranty Parts 1 Year(s) WebId 10161107 More information FEATURES: An AMD Athlon II 640 Quad-Core Processor and 4GB DDR3 system memory provide ample resources to blaze through your day to day computing needs Store music, movies, pictures and documents on the 750GB hard drive The SuperMulti DVD burner with LightScribe technology lets you create custom, silkscreen-quality labels and artwork directly onto LightScribe-enabled CD and DVD discs Integrated audio, 6 speaker configurable with up to 5.1 surround sound capabilities 6 USB 2.0 ports 6-in-1 memory card reader This model comes complete with Genuine Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit

January 8th, 2011, 11:35 AM	#46
Floris van Eck Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 993	I have tested out many different conversions. The rewrapped quicktime from ClipWrap really stutter in both FCP and PPro CS5. I also tried CineForm 422 and ProRes, both LT and 422. The ProRes 422 file sizes are around 25-33% bigger than the ProRes 422 LT file sizes. I settled with 422 at the end, because I read somewhere that the compression matches the pacing of that of ProRes 422, creating a smoother image. I also read Apple's ProRes July 2009 whitepaper, and ProRes 422 is less prone to generation loss. Cineform files are around 25% smaller than ProRes 422 files, but I need to buy additional software to use them longer than the demo period. And as I don't see big differences between CineForm 422 and ProRes 422, I rather spend my $129-$499 on something else. ProRes 422 files are around 10x the size of the AVCHD files. My workflow is as follows: - Transfer SD Card to computer; - Use A Better Finder Rename to rename the files, according to sequence number, date and time; - Use AME watch folder to transcode the renamed files from AVCHD 28mbps to ProRes 422 .mov files; - Archive the original MTS files - Import the ProRes 422 files into FCP/PPro CS5 Too bad you can't really preview the .MTS files on a Mac, otherwise I would prefer a log and transfer first to get rid of excess footage in my clips and then convert to ProRes 422. I really hope the AVCHD 28MBPS 1080p50 / 1080p60 will be made official soon since Sony now also uses it.

January 11th, 2011, 09:14 PM	#47
Dave Jervis New Boot Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: London UK Posts: 22	I don't feel I can advise you at all on this subject Floris..... With Windows 7 on an i7 PC running Edius Neo 2.5 you just preview .MTS as you would any other video file, and Edius just opens and edits them smoothly in their native format (in my case, up to 4 video tracks at once). (....It's not my intention to sound smug, I'm just trying to explain why I can't offer any advice......) Good luck with finding your best workflow...... dave

January 12th, 2011, 07:51 PM	#48
Wacharapong Chiowanich Major Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 400	You can preview .mts files on your Mac using the freeware "Movist" (search for it in this forum). You may have some issues with the playback sound but otherwise the player will do fine without having to rewrap files or anything. It can't play.m2t files, though.

January 14th, 2011, 10:09 AM	#50
Floris van Eck Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 993	Hello Melvin, Wacharapong, thank you for your replies. I also use VLC but the 1080p50 files are not playing back smoothly. I have a 2006 Mac Pro with 12GB Ram and an ATI 1900 graphics card. Inside PPro, they playback just fine. Maybe a new iMac or Mac Pro will solve my problems but I am trying to buy a new computer somewhere in the second half of 2011/early 2012 (after Lion) is released and I know more about CS6 and FCS 2011 and what they need in order to get the max out of the system (i.e. CUDA card etc.). Final Cut Pro doesn't support the 1080p50 format yet. What I would like to do is do a log and transfer first before I do a transcode so I can get rid of all excess material. Call it housekeeping. I will try Movista... sound like a good tool.

February 7th, 2012, 09:47 AM	#57
Ian Sanders Tourist Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Plymouth, UK Posts: 1	Re: How good is the HDC-TM700 (for professional use) Hi, Just found this thread and have a simple(ish) question. Is it better to shoot in 1080/50p (28 MBS) and convert to 25p or simply shoot in 1080/25p (17 MBS). Does the 50fps quoted higher bit rate generate a better quality image than the 25fps lower bit rate? Given my current output is bluray i am not sure whether I need to shoot in 1080/50p other than to archive for a time when it is more useful. Any help in de-misting this issue for me will be greatly appreciated. Ian

February 9th, 2012, 10:53 PM	#58
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Re: How good is the HDC-TM700 (for professional use) Ian, I held off answering this, because I have wondered the same thing ... however since no-one else has replied yet, let me take a stab at it. You ask about "better" in the context of datarate, so I assume you are primarily wondering about the quality of the footage. My guess would be that 50P at 28Mbps might on average be marginally better than 25P at 17Mbps, but that may well depend on the particular subject matter (level of detail, motion, etc). There are some other considerations though ... and here is why I usually shoot 60P (I'm in the States): 1) future-proofing (as you mentioned). 2) option to produce 1080i: playable on all current devices with better motion rendition than 25P for sports etc. (Have said that, I NEVER use 1080i myself). 3) option to resize down to 720P60, which is within the BluRay spec, and which I can match with the 720P60 produced by my GH2 and HMC40. (I do use this, all the time). 3a) option to recompose the image, if needed, during the process of down-rezzing to 720P. For example, I did this recently to improve some poorly-composed footage of high-speed skiing. Just my $0.02. Interested in what other might have to say....