DVX100 and Vegas 4.0 at DVinfo.net

Glen Elliott · May 23rd, 2003, 07:25 AM

Is it true Vegas supports 24p- and if so what do I do?...Shoot in 24pA? How much different does 24p with normal pulldown look compared to footage shot on 24pA with the advanced pulldown?

Stephen van Vuuren · May 23rd, 2003, 09:42 AM

Versions 4.0b and later do (current release is 4.0c). Shoot any flavor of 24p and capture using template - it's that simple. 24pA will look a little smoother for true 24p output (film, DVD, digital projection).

Some thing 24p looks better on regular 29.97 NTSC, but it is somewhat a matter of taste.

24pA does give you the best quality for 24p workflow.

Yang Wen · May 23rd, 2003, 10:01 AM

Not to mention it saves about 20% disk space in 24P mode

Glen Elliott · May 23rd, 2003, 10:12 AM

So let me see if I get this correct- the only difference betwewen 24p and 24pA is the pulldown. 24p does a normal 3:2 to convert to 29.97 frames and 24pA does an advanced (2:3:3:2...I think) pull-down to remove the bum frame from converting it to 29.97. Right?

So if I have a progressive scan DVD player and I shoot in 24pA, and edit in native 24p via Vegas I can make a real-deal 24 frame progressive scan movie viewable on my DVD player? What special settings should I adhere to?....Does it have to be encoded a specific way to retain it's 24p status...I'm still kinda cloudy about the whole 24p/29.97 thing.

Lastly, so out of the box Vegas will be 4.0a...and I'll have to download the 4.0b or 4.0c patch..to support 24pA footage?

Stephen van Vuuren · May 23rd, 2003, 12:05 PM

Sonic generally updates their boxes if you order directly from them though their is some lag between releases.

Per 24p, this is straight from the Vegas manual. And I would recommend DVD Architect as well if you are planning on trying surround sound.

What do you want to do?
Add 24p video to your project
Adding 24p video to your project is just like adding any other supported media file. You'll just need to tell Vegas how you want to handle the files.

Select the Allow pulldown removal when opening 24p DV check box on the General tab of the Preferences dialog if you want Vegas to remove pulldown when you open 24 fps progressive-scan DV video files. When the check box is cleared, Vegas will read and edit 24p video as 29.97 fps interlaced video (60i).

Convert video to 24p
If you want to use existing video with 24p video, Vegas makes it easy to convert your existing footage.

Render a 24p project as a DV AVI file
The DV format cannot store 24p video directly and uses pulldown to convert 24p video to DV format.

Render your project as you normally would as an AVI file, but choose a rendering template to indicate how Vegas should handle pulldown fields:

You'll need to choose a rendering template that inserts pulldown fields to create a standard DV file if your project properties are set to 24p or if you selected the Allow pulldown removal when opening 24p DV check box on the General tab of the Preferences dialog. Use the NTSC DV 24p (inserting 2-3-3-2 pulldown) template if you intend to bring the file back into Vegas as source material.

If you cleared the Allow pulldown removal when opening 24p DV check box before adding your media and your project properties are not set to 24p, Vegas reads your 24p video as 29.97 fps interlaced video (60i), so you can choose whichever NTSC DV or PAL DV template suits your project requirements.

Prepare 24p files for use in DVD Architect
Render your video as MPEG-2 files using the DVD Architect NTSC video stream template to create 23.976 fps progressive-scan video that DVD Architect will read and burn without recompression.

Create a project in 24p from start to finish
If you have Vegas+DVD and a 24p camcorder (such as the Panasonic AG-DVX100), you can create, edit, and deliver your project completely in 24p.

With the Panasonic AG-DVX100, shoot in 24p Advanced mode. The 2-3-3-2 pulldown method used in Advanced mode is more efficient for Vegas than the 2-3 pulldown used in the 24p Standard mode.

Set your project properties:

a. From the File menu, choose Properties. The Project Properties dialog is displayed.

b. From the Template drop-down list, choose NTSC DV 24p.

c. Click OK to close the Project Properties dialog and apply your changes.

Select the Allow pulldown removal when opening 24p DV check box on the General tab of the Preferences dialog.

Add the video to the timeline.

Render or prerender your file using the following settings:

Use the NTSC DV 24p (inserting 2-3-3-2 pulldown) AVI template for prerenders.

Use the NTSC DV 24p (inserting 2-3 pulldown) AVI template for print-to-tape.

Use the DVD Architect 24p NTSC video stream MPEG-2 template when rendering for DVD Architect.

Print your project to tape or burn to DVD using DVD Architect.

Dennis Adams · May 23rd, 2003, 02:23 PM

I'll try to address the questions and statements I see on this thread so far:

Yes, Vegas 4 (4.0b or newer) supports 24p and 24pA (as well as 30p and 60i) from the Panasonic AG-DVX100.

You can shoot either. They take the same amount of disk space because "extra" frames are removed on read, not capture. 24pA is more efficient to read, so you should shoot with that when you know you're going into the NLE.

The output will look identical, because Vegas can render with 2-3 or 2-3-3-2 pulldown, regardless of whether the source is 2-3 or 2-3-3-2 pulldown. It can convert either to either. We recommend using 2-3-3-2 for pre-renders (again, for efficiency) and using 2-3 for final rendering that will be delivered.

Be aware that the S5 and S6 settings on the DVX100 (which shoot 24p and 24pA, respectively) also have other settings that are different -- in particular, I think S5 shoots "thick" mode and S6 shoots "thin". You can, of course, change this, and the other settings are independent of normal vs. advanced pulldown mode.

We also render 24p MPEG-2 for DVD with TFF/RFF flags so your player will generate pulldown for interlaced output, or can extract 24p for progressive output. DVD Architect (included with Vegas+DVD) can bring in these files and burn them without recompression. These discs are compatible with any player that a 60i burned DVD would be, and use the same technology as Hollywood DVDs for 24p on DVD.

Finally, Vegas and DVD Architect support anamorphic widescreen so you can do 24p 16:9 content for DV or DVD. You can generate 16:9 content with the DVX100 using the anamorphic lens, or by shooting regular 4:3 or letterboxed 4:3 and then having Vegas 4 do a crop and stretch to anamorphic.

We posted a 24p whitepaper here that you might find useful.

I believe the shipping boxes do not have 4.0b or newer in them yet, so you should download the update from our website. If you have Vegas+DVD, download the 1.0b or newer DVD Architect to get the "24p on DVD" support.

///d@

Stephen van Vuuren · May 23rd, 2003, 02:42 PM

Thanks for the info Denis. I'm so happy I switched from Premiere RT2000 to a Vegas system. I was already a heavy user of Sound Forge, Vegas Audio, Acid. Now, with DVD Architect, my entire workflow will be one company and flow oh so much better. Well, except for Photoshop, Illustrator and After Effects.

Have you guys though up adding more apps :)

Jarred Land · May 27th, 2003, 04:12 PM

well one company, just the company now is Sony :)

Christopher Go · July 4th, 2003, 06:55 AM

Thought I'd resurrect a good thread since I have some questions on using the Panasonic with Vegas:

I'm tired of waiting for Avid to come out with 24p support for their consumer products (Xpress, Mojo) and thought I'd give Vegas a try. I've pulled up their website for the first time but wanted to ask a quick question. Is there any difference in the student version of Vegas 4 from the retail one? Can you patch the student version without any problems, from b to c for example?

Dennis Adams · July 4th, 2003, 08:47 AM

The Vegas student version is the same CD; it updates just the same, and all of the functions are available.
///d@

Christopher Go · July 11th, 2003, 04:14 AM

Thanks, Dennis - got my copy recently. I have yet to install it but I'm looking forward to trying it out along with true 24P editing capabilities.

Glen Elliott · July 11th, 2003, 07:41 AM

Checked FED-EX's site, I'm getting mine today- can't wait! Be able to have the full registered version (to use Main Concept MPG encoder) plus I can't wait to check out DVD Architec. I know it's all fluff but I like motion menus! ;)

May 23rd, 2003, 07:25 AM	#1
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	DVX100 and Vegas 4.0 Is it true Vegas supports 24p- and if so what do I do?...Shoot in 24pA? How much different does 24p with normal pulldown look compared to footage shot on 24pA with the advanced pulldown?

May 23rd, 2003, 09:42 AM	#2
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Versions 4.0b and later do (current release is 4.0c). Shoot any flavor of 24p and capture using template - it's that simple. 24pA will look a little smoother for true 24p output (film, DVD, digital projection). Some thing 24p looks better on regular 29.97 NTSC, but it is somewhat a matter of taste. 24pA does give you the best quality for 24p workflow. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

May 23rd, 2003, 12:05 PM	#5
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Sonic generally updates their boxes if you order directly from them though their is some lag between releases. Per 24p, this is straight from the Vegas manual. And I would recommend DVD Architect as well if you are planning on trying surround sound. What do you want to do? Add 24p video to your project Adding 24p video to your project is just like adding any other supported media file. You'll just need to tell Vegas how you want to handle the files. Select the Allow pulldown removal when opening 24p DV check box on the General tab of the Preferences dialog if you want Vegas to remove pulldown when you open 24 fps progressive-scan DV video files. When the check box is cleared, Vegas will read and edit 24p video as 29.97 fps interlaced video (60i). Convert video to 24p If you want to use existing video with 24p video, Vegas makes it easy to convert your existing footage. Render a 24p project as a DV AVI file The DV format cannot store 24p video directly and uses pulldown to convert 24p video to DV format. Render your project as you normally would as an AVI file, but choose a rendering template to indicate how Vegas should handle pulldown fields: You'll need to choose a rendering template that inserts pulldown fields to create a standard DV file if your project properties are set to 24p or if you selected the Allow pulldown removal when opening 24p DV check box on the General tab of the Preferences dialog. Use the NTSC DV 24p (inserting 2-3-3-2 pulldown) template if you intend to bring the file back into Vegas as source material. If you cleared the Allow pulldown removal when opening 24p DV check box before adding your media and your project properties are not set to 24p, Vegas reads your 24p video as 29.97 fps interlaced video (60i), so you can choose whichever NTSC DV or PAL DV template suits your project requirements. Prepare 24p files for use in DVD Architect Render your video as MPEG-2 files using the DVD Architect NTSC video stream template to create 23.976 fps progressive-scan video that DVD Architect will read and burn without recompression. Create a project in 24p from start to finish If you have Vegas+DVD and a 24p camcorder (such as the Panasonic AG-DVX100), you can create, edit, and deliver your project completely in 24p. With the Panasonic AG-DVX100, shoot in 24p Advanced mode. The 2-3-3-2 pulldown method used in Advanced mode is more efficient for Vegas than the 2-3 pulldown used in the 24p Standard mode. Set your project properties: a. From the File menu, choose Properties. The Project Properties dialog is displayed. b. From the Template drop-down list, choose NTSC DV 24p. c. Click OK to close the Project Properties dialog and apply your changes. Select the Allow pulldown removal when opening 24p DV check box on the General tab of the Preferences dialog. Add the video to the timeline. Render or prerender your file using the following settings: Use the NTSC DV 24p (inserting 2-3-3-2 pulldown) AVI template for prerenders. Use the NTSC DV 24p (inserting 2-3 pulldown) AVI template for print-to-tape. Use the DVD Architect 24p NTSC video stream MPEG-2 template when rendering for DVD Architect. Print your project to tape or burn to DVD using DVD Architect. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

May 23rd, 2003, 02:42 PM	#7
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Thanks for the info Denis. I'm so happy I switched from Premiere RT2000 to a Vegas system. I was already a heavy user of Sound Forge, Vegas Audio, Acid. Now, with DVD Architect, my entire workflow will be one company and flow oh so much better. Well, except for Photoshop, Illustrator and After Effects. Have you guys though up adding more apps :) __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

May 23rd, 2003, 10:01 AM	#3
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	Not to mention it saves about 20% disk space in 24P mode

May 23rd, 2003, 10:12 AM	#4
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	So let me see if I get this correct- the only difference betwewen 24p and 24pA is the pulldown. 24p does a normal 3:2 to convert to 29.97 frames and 24pA does an advanced (2:3:3:2...I think) pull-down to remove the bum frame from converting it to 29.97. Right? So if I have a progressive scan DVD player and I shoot in 24pA, and edit in native 24p via Vegas I can make a real-deal 24 frame progressive scan movie viewable on my DVD player? What special settings should I adhere to?....Does it have to be encoded a specific way to retain it's 24p status...I'm still kinda cloudy about the whole 24p/29.97 thing. Lastly, so out of the box Vegas will be 4.0a...and I'll have to download the 4.0b or 4.0c patch..to support 24pA footage?

May 23rd, 2003, 02:23 PM	#6
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	I'll try to address the questions and statements I see on this thread so far: Yes, Vegas 4 (4.0b or newer) supports 24p and 24pA (as well as 30p and 60i) from the Panasonic AG-DVX100. You can shoot either. They take the same amount of disk space because "extra" frames are removed on read, not capture. 24pA is more efficient to read, so you should shoot with that when you know you're going into the NLE. The output will look identical, because Vegas can render with 2-3 or 2-3-3-2 pulldown, regardless of whether the source is 2-3 or 2-3-3-2 pulldown. It can convert either to either. We recommend using 2-3-3-2 for pre-renders (again, for efficiency) and using 2-3 for final rendering that will be delivered. Be aware that the S5 and S6 settings on the DVX100 (which shoot 24p and 24pA, respectively) also have other settings that are different -- in particular, I think S5 shoots "thick" mode and S6 shoots "thin". You can, of course, change this, and the other settings are independent of normal vs. advanced pulldown mode. We also render 24p MPEG-2 for DVD with TFF/RFF flags so your player will generate pulldown for interlaced output, or can extract 24p for progressive output. DVD Architect (included with Vegas+DVD) can bring in these files and burn them without recompression. These discs are compatible with any player that a 60i burned DVD would be, and use the same technology as Hollywood DVDs for 24p on DVD. Finally, Vegas and DVD Architect support anamorphic widescreen so you can do 24p 16:9 content for DV or DVD. You can generate 16:9 content with the DVX100 using the anamorphic lens, or by shooting regular 4:3 or letterboxed 4:3 and then having Vegas 4 do a crop and stretch to anamorphic. We posted a 24p whitepaper here that you might find useful. I believe the shipping boxes do not have 4.0b or newer in them yet, so you should download the update from our website. If you have Vegas+DVD, download the 1.0b or newer DVD Architect to get the "24p on DVD" support. ///d@

May 27th, 2003, 04:12 PM	#8
Jarred Land DVX User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Vancouver Posts: 281	well one company, just the company now is Sony :)

July 4th, 2003, 06:55 AM	#9
Christopher Go Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 429	Thought I'd resurrect a good thread since I have some questions on using the Panasonic with Vegas: I'm tired of waiting for Avid to come out with 24p support for their consumer products (Xpress, Mojo) and thought I'd give Vegas a try. I've pulled up their website for the first time but wanted to ask a quick question. Is there any difference in the student version of Vegas 4 from the retail one? Can you patch the student version without any problems, from b to c for example?

July 4th, 2003, 08:47 AM	#10
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	The Vegas student version is the same CD; it updates just the same, and all of the functions are available. ///d@

July 11th, 2003, 04:14 AM	#11
Christopher Go Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 429	Thanks, Dennis - got my copy recently. I have yet to install it but I'm looking forward to trying it out along with true 24P editing capabilities.

July 11th, 2003, 07:41 AM	#12
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Checked FED-EX's site, I'm getting mine today- can't wait! Be able to have the full registered version (to use Main Concept MPG encoder) plus I can't wait to check out DVD Architec. I know it's all fluff but I like motion menus! ;)