Curious about GL2 vs DVX100

Bob Benkosky · April 30th, 2003, 01:27 PM

That's actually one thing I hate about films, strobing when something is panned. I am not conditioned to accept it even though I see many, many movies. I'll admit it kinda gives me a headache. I kinda look away when I see a pan that involves strobing.

I've read that soon there's going to be filming/video done at higher than 24p even in films on the large screen. There trying to figure out how it can be inexpensive. I saw this along time ago, but the main point is trying to achieve a new standard in high def filming compared to 24p.

Marc Martin · May 2nd, 2003, 10:14 AM

I have post again the file on my server. The server has some problems, it's not my fault, so to download, right clic and save as. It works now.

The file was made with an XM2, edited on Vegas, encoded in WM8 (Windows Media). It is normally Mac compatible. You can download the Mac player here: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/software/Macintosh/osx/default.aspx

David Slingerland · May 8th, 2003, 03:06 PM

I dont get it, is there something wrong with my eyes? i never see any strobing in movies, especially not the big ones, not anything like the mini-dv cameras mimick anyway. I did see it in old 8 mm film, shot with cameras for the consumermarket. Anyway can somebody give me the technical specs on the 24 p mode of the panasonic compared to the xl1. I have seen this 24p mode also on the more expensive professional camera's (panasonic) is it the same system? I am going to write an article and I want your expert opinions on this...(.oh I did search but there is very much confusion on the subject)

thanks,

Stephen van Vuuren · May 8th, 2003, 03:22 PM

Start your research on http://www.adamwilt.com - much info on 30fps frame mode of XL1 and 24p progressive scan on DVX100.

Akos Szemenyei · May 8th, 2003, 08:55 PM

David, I think they are talking about motion blur, because that's what you get with a pan at 24fps. Strobe is more like a pulsating image I would say. So if you look closely, you will see the motion blur in any feature film out there.

Matt Milan · May 8th, 2003, 11:02 PM

I think they may be talking about 'motion artifacts' when a camera is panned quickly at 24fps?

Like for example... at a large local cinema they used to have a 3D rollercoaster ride as a pre-curser to the actual feature. It was basically a cheesy quality animation where they put the camera on a 'coaster' that rides along a track of film while giving the audience valuable information about depositing trash in the trash cans. When the coaster makes sharp turns in the animation, the camera pans quickly across the 3D scene, and when it does the image looks choppy and seems to almost lose detail because of this.

It's somewhat hard to explain, but you can sort of mimic it on your computer. Move any object across your desktop quickly (such as your mouse cursor or a window) and you will get a sort of strobing effect. It doesn't look smooth. Now, in the movies it doesn't look quite this bad because cameras actually capture motion blur... so your eye is more or less tricked into believing it's smooth. But when things pan too fast at 24fps it can still look choppy or strobby even with motion blur.

I am pretty sure that any DP or director or whatnot knows this so they try to minimze it with their camera movements.

Bob Benkosky · May 9th, 2003, 01:45 AM

Yes, it's not the old school strobing effect on super 8 films. It's more of the motion artifacts while panning quickly.

Akos Szemenyei · May 9th, 2003, 02:36 AM

Ahh...ok, that's what you guys meant. I guess I call it strobing from now on, but I like choppy better. lol

William Wallick · May 14th, 2003, 07:58 PM

Thanks Stephen, good info.

I am not familiar with Vegas Video, can you capture live to hard drive (tapeless)?
WW

Rick Spilman · May 14th, 2003, 08:11 PM

Am I missing something? Wasn't the original question about the overall quality between the two cameras? The GL2 has 1/3" CCDs whereas the DVX100 has 1/4" CCDs. Even with the whole 24p question set aside the Panny really should have a better image.

I have read reviews which suggest that the DVX100 has a comparable image quality, maybe better, maybe about the same, as the PD150 when shooting at 60i . The GL2 is a fine camera but not quite in the same league due to the smaller CCDs. Or am I missing something?

Akos Szemenyei · May 14th, 2003, 08:36 PM

Rick, I think you mean the other way around, the GL2 has 1/4" CCDs while the DVX100 has the 1/3" CCDs.

Marc Martin · May 14th, 2003, 08:45 PM

The GL2 is 1/4" CCD, and DVX100 1/3"

Yes, GL2 has smaller CCD than the PD150/VX2000, but... read this: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9359

It will be interesting to compare side by side DVX100 and GL2.

Rick Spilman · May 15th, 2003, 04:16 AM

Exactly, I swapped the ccd sizes. Oops.

April 30th, 2003, 01:27 PM	#16
Bob Benkosky Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Lake Park, Florida Posts: 202	That's actually one thing I hate about films, strobing when something is panned. I am not conditioned to accept it even though I see many, many movies. I'll admit it kinda gives me a headache. I kinda look away when I see a pan that involves strobing. I've read that soon there's going to be filming/video done at higher than 24p even in films on the large screen. There trying to figure out how it can be inexpensive. I saw this along time ago, but the main point is trying to achieve a new standard in high def filming compared to 24p. __________________ http://www.veoh.com/channels/filmmaker My clips and films.

May 8th, 2003, 03:06 PM	#18
David Slingerland Major Player Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Soest ,Holland Posts: 307	I dont get it, is there something wrong with my eyes? i never see any strobing in movies, especially not the big ones, not anything like the mini-dv cameras mimick anyway. I did see it in old 8 mm film, shot with cameras for the consumermarket. Anyway can somebody give me the technical specs on the 24 p mode of the panasonic compared to the xl1. I have seen this 24p mode also on the more expensive professional camera's (panasonic) is it the same system? I am going to write an article and I want your expert opinions on this...(.oh I did search but there is very much confusion on the subject) thanks, __________________ D.Slingerland director/cameraman http://www.slingerlandproductions.nl

May 8th, 2003, 03:22 PM	#19
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Start your research on http://www.adamwilt.com - much info on 30fps frame mode of XL1 and 24p progressive scan on DVX100. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

May 8th, 2003, 11:02 PM	#21
Matt Milan New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Castro Valley, CA Posts: 11	I think they may be talking about 'motion artifacts' when a camera is panned quickly at 24fps? Like for example... at a large local cinema they used to have a 3D rollercoaster ride as a pre-curser to the actual feature. It was basically a cheesy quality animation where they put the camera on a 'coaster' that rides along a track of film while giving the audience valuable information about depositing trash in the trash cans. When the coaster makes sharp turns in the animation, the camera pans quickly across the 3D scene, and when it does the image looks choppy and seems to almost lose detail because of this. It's somewhat hard to explain, but you can sort of mimic it on your computer. Move any object across your desktop quickly (such as your mouse cursor or a window) and you will get a sort of strobing effect. It doesn't look smooth. Now, in the movies it doesn't look quite this bad because cameras actually capture motion blur... so your eye is more or less tricked into believing it's smooth. But when things pan too fast at 24fps it can still look choppy or strobby even with motion blur. I am pretty sure that any DP or director or whatnot knows this so they try to minimze it with their camera movements. __________________ -Matt Milan-

May 9th, 2003, 01:45 AM	#22
Bob Benkosky Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Lake Park, Florida Posts: 202	Yes, it's not the old school strobing effect on super 8 films. It's more of the motion artifacts while panning quickly. __________________ http://www.veoh.com/channels/filmmaker My clips and films.

May 2nd, 2003, 10:14 AM	#17
Marc Martin Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Paris, France Posts: 80	I have post again the file on my server. The server has some problems, it's not my fault, so to download, right clic and save as. It works now. The file was made with an XM2, edited on Vegas, encoded in WM8 (Windows Media). It is normally Mac compatible. You can download the Mac player here: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/software/Macintosh/osx/default.aspx

May 8th, 2003, 08:55 PM	#20
Akos Szemenyei Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Saitama, Japan Posts: 111	David, I think they are talking about motion blur, because that's what you get with a pan at 24fps. Strobe is more like a pulsating image I would say. So if you look closely, you will see the motion blur in any feature film out there.

May 9th, 2003, 02:36 AM	#23
Akos Szemenyei Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Saitama, Japan Posts: 111	Ahh...ok, that's what you guys meant. I guess I call it strobing from now on, but I like choppy better. lol

May 14th, 2003, 07:58 PM	#24
William Wallick Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 27	Thanks Stephen, good info. I am not familiar with Vegas Video, can you capture live to hard drive (tapeless)? WW

May 14th, 2003, 08:11 PM	#25
Rick Spilman Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Jersey City, NJ Posts: 366	Am I missing something? Wasn't the original question about the overall quality between the two cameras? The GL2 has 1/3" CCDs whereas the DVX100 has 1/4" CCDs. Even with the whole 24p question set aside the Panny really should have a better image. I have read reviews which suggest that the DVX100 has a comparable image quality, maybe better, maybe about the same, as the PD150 when shooting at 60i . The GL2 is a fine camera but not quite in the same league due to the smaller CCDs. Or am I missing something?

May 14th, 2003, 08:36 PM	#26
Akos Szemenyei Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Saitama, Japan Posts: 111	Rick, I think you mean the other way around, the GL2 has 1/4" CCDs while the DVX100 has the 1/3" CCDs.

May 14th, 2003, 08:45 PM	#27
Marc Martin Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Paris, France Posts: 80	The GL2 is 1/4" CCD, and DVX100 1/3" Yes, GL2 has smaller CCD than the PD150/VX2000, but... read this: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9359 It will be interesting to compare side by side DVX100 and GL2.

May 15th, 2003, 04:16 AM	#28
Rick Spilman Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Jersey City, NJ Posts: 366	Exactly, I swapped the ccd sizes. Oops.