DVX100 vs XL1S for movie shoots ?

[Ken Tanaka]

Todd & Dylan,
Indeed, within a range of cameras the practical distinctions are truly small. Yes, each has its unique features and limitations. But in many cases camera owners never take the time to thoroughly learn how to best use what they have. Some new camera always seems to have a feature that they believe will improve their work.

[Todd Mattson]

BZZZZZZ!!!! (follow by snake sounds).....

Dylan & Ken,

Mos def. It IS the person and NOT the camera, and it seems that so much emphasis is placed on the camera on all of these boards, rather than the dedication, work (yes, work), and creativity, that it actually takes to make a film, whether it's with a Pixelvision camera or the brand spanking new Dalsa. Both ya'll hit it right on the nose. I used to come to these boards to hear about everyone's new tricks that they had discovered with their cameras, and I would share mine as well.

Those days are long gone, and rare is it that I actually feel as though I've come away with something new. This can be atributed to exactly what you are saying. People aren't learning their camera's manuals inside and out,and saying "What If?". It's just the same old "my dad is bigger than your dad" thing over and over. Is it because there ARE so many more kids doing this now that these boards have become over populated by them, relegating those of us who don't have anything to prove, and are working professionally, to boredom? I WANT SOME NEW TRICKS!!! Someone please tell me about something adventurous and new they did with their camera!!! ANYONE?!?

Todd

[Randy Turner]

I actually have been playing guitar for 20 yrs and yes you can play on both models but im telling you a good les paul beats the hell out of a off brand cheapy sound is better from the pickups also intonation is not off like on those cheap copys warped necks etc. and if thats what the GL2 is i better stop the order ! buying a dv camcorder is like pulling teeth ! after all the scum iv delt with in new yord like 5starelectronics ! told me the GL2 was in stock sold it then call me the next day to sell optics etc then tell me its on back order 4 weeks lol what a bunch of pukes ! i found a JVC GY-DV500 i think im going to buy it for about 2500.00 used enough of all this debating whats better every one has a different opinion in this forum and only confuse me more then i already am :-( how many of you here work for the Canon or panasonic or jvc or sony company just here to get people to buy there product ? gotta wonder after so many conflicting opinions ! grrr

[Ken Tanaka]

Randy,
None of us work for manufacturers. You asked for opinions, you got them.

Good luck with your new camera and endeavors.

[Randy Turner]

sorry ken didnt mean to say you did , just cant seem to get a strait answer but i guess thats the world of dv cams :-/ if you ask someone that works with lets say oh anything other then dv cams you get most to agree on one or 2 items that are the best to get for what you want it for for an example i repair or used to repair appliances i can tell you hands down maytag washers out do all there compatition or if you are an auto machanic you would say toyota for sport utility vehicles etc. if you men and women work in the field and have gone through the bull sh** with these things i figured you would say something like well the GL2 is realy only for the consummer any pro wouldnt be caught dead with it and at the least a pd 150 thats the lowest end model or XL1S you will see a camera man using for lets say cnn or fox news and that the GL2 can't do what these others do its a prosummer model only has a 1/4 CCD what did you expect ? to make a speilburg movie with it ? lol well get some more money or use the GL2 and make a movie but expect to have to remake the whole thing if you find a corp that likes what you have they will spend the bucks to do it right ! if you want to sell to pbs then get a 1/2 to 3/4 CCD model then you have a chance otherwise you may find yourself remaking what you have spent a month or 2 filming with a camcorder that most pros would look at as a joke ! dont waist your time and money on these prosummer models they are for the guy that wants to be speilburg but doesnt have the $$$$ or something like that :-)

[Jeff Donald]

Get a room full of people together and it's hard to get a consensus on anything. How about what to eat? You want Italian, I want a hamburger, you want Pepsi, I want Coke. Video is even worse. To a very large degree it is art, not science. It is very subjective. The cameras you're looking at all have subtle differences. Not night and day differences that laymen find easy to agree on.

Truth be told, the camera you choose will have very little to do with the success or failure of your projects. Your editing skills, quality of script and actors, music score, lighting ability etc. are far more important than the camera you choose. Nor did I mention brand of computer, brand of tape, brand of filter, brand of microphone etc. We all have different opinions on all of the brands.

Sennheiser is the favorite microphone brand here, I use Audio Technica. PC's are the favorite computer, I use a Mac. Sachtlers and Bogens are the favorite tripods, I use a Vinten. Does that mean that I can't produce quality programming? No. It just means that creative people are all individuals and have different opinions.

So, how does one pick a camera? I call it the Zen of camera buying. Pick up the camera and play with it, get the feel of it. Do you like the view finder? You'd better, because your eye is going to be glued to it for a long time. Is it comfortable? It better be because your going to be using it for ten hours a day or longer when you shoot. Do you like the quality of the image? You'd better, or how else are you going to stare at it for sixteen hours a day when your editing it? Pick the camera that is right for Randy and not the huddled masses. After all, who's making your movie? You, or them?

[Randy Turner]

Thank you Jeff , my whole purpose of posting was to get an honest opinoin its not going to take a 10.000.00 dollar camcorder to get good results ! if i do a good k=job with the GL2 ill be able to sell my product :-) it will work for mtv or vh1 or pbs it has everything they need to put it on tv or HBO if its a short movie ! why spend 10.000.00 if i can spend 1/4 of that and still get good results exceptable to main stream media tv / HBO / CNN / PBS / etc. thats all i wanted to know and thank you for being Honest and blunt :-) my skill with the production is where it counts ! not that im going to use less then the GL2 id feel real stupid making a music video with a 300.00 dollar jvc or something lol :-) .
Randy.

[Dylan Couper]

Randy
If you can't make a good looking movie or a commercial with a GL2, you won't be able to make one with a digiBetacam or a 35mm rig either. All of these rigs (PD150, GL2, XL1, DVX1000) are excellent cameras. Granted, most "pros" wouldn't be caught dead using anything less than a Betacam. I'd put up $100 that you and most people here (including me) couldn't tell which was which between the footage of a GL2 and a Betacam shot side by side in optimal conditions.

[Boyd Ostroff]

"I'd put up $100 that you and most people here (including me) couldn't tell which was which between the footage of a GL2 and a Betacam shot side by side in optimal conditions."
---------------------------
I guess it depends on those "optimal conditions" ;-) Now that I've learned what to look for I find DV footage pretty recognizable when I watch something like the Discovery Channel, CNN, etc . There's a certain look that the compression gives to detailed parts of an image, and often the edges look over-enhanced and contrasty. Maybe the inexpensive lenses on our DV cameras also contribute to this look?

But it is true that with a little work and planning you can minimize these differences or even make them disappear.

[Randy Turner]

from what i have read in the last 3 weeks on this forum you can make almost any 3 CCD camcorder look good with the right adjustments low light problems make adjustment and you will get the same look as the sony or maybe the you want the movie look etc. make adjustment and you will get the look you need all you need to do is use the abilitys of the camcorder and shazzam there you are ! not only that iv even heard that for a good movie look spend money on a good filter or try the nylon sock cheap movie look over the camcorder and wow it works ! or atleast iv read that wont know till i get the dang thing ! :-)
Randy.

[Glenn Gipson]

>>The cameras you're looking at all have subtle differences. Not night and day differences that laymen find easy to agree on.<<


Jeff, I respectively disagree, simply because there is a night and day difference between INTERLACE video and PROGRESSIVE video, and we all know that the DVX100 is the ONLY prosumer camera to do progressive (and interlace.) And then there is the fact that the DVX100 is the ONLY prosumer camera to do 24p, and that is definitely another “night or day” example.

[Jeff Donald]

Glenn, the DVX100 is a good camera, no doubt. I've used it and the 24p does provide a nice image. The DVX100 has it's faults like any other camera and I outlined it's faults in several of Randy's posts. Night and day is in the eye of the beholder and it's an opinion. There are advantageous to it's use if you're going to film with your project. But NTSC is 29.97 frames per second and in that realm it only offers a different look. Day and night difference from the XL1S or PD150? Not in my opinion. If given a choice between a great script and a DVX100, the choice is obvious.

[Todd Mattson]

Randy,

I've been playing guitar for twenty years as well. Perhaps a more fair comparison between the DVX and XL1s would have been between the EPIPHONE Les Paul and a $500 range Fender Stratocaster. As for the JVC, hmmm, let me think, a Yamaha? Or maybe ESP? Definitely not Dean and Paul Reed Smith. Or for that matter a Gretsch or Rickenbacker. I really can't speak to JVC's gear, other than my 'ol trusty rusty SVHS deck, especially since I don't work for THEM. Just kidding!!! The best advice anyone has given you so far is to try it out and see if you like it, just like the days I remember when I used to stroll around the music store and play "Stairway To Heaven" on every guitar there. If you live anywhere close to NY, a trip to B&H may be warranted in helping you make an informed decision.

Glenn,

While you and I may be able to tell the difference between the DVX's 24P and the XL1's frame mode in a heartbeat, I don't think any of my clients would ever, after looking at frame mode footage, stand up and exclaim, "That's Pixel Shift Technology. I know it when I see it!!!"

Interlaced footage and progressive footage are two different birds, you are correct, but the fact is the Panasonic is NOT the only game in town for progressive footage. Especially when you consider that most progressive footage you see from SD cams is actually post-processed interlaced footage. Me personally, I prefer the DVX, but that doesn't say that you can't shoot with a PD150 a get good results deinterlacing with one of the various available methods.

Todd

[Jeff Donald]

It will be interesting to see if any projects from a DVX100 make it to Sundance and do well. Films post processed with Magic Bullet seem to be the favorites for the last couple of years.

[Stephen van Vuuren]

my 2.0 cents:

I also play rock guitar and keyboards and my wife is an accomplished classical gutairist and teacher.

Per instruments, which applies to cameras, in my view.

For unskilled players, they can't make a $5000 hand made classical guitar sound any better than $150 Yahama. But in the hands of experienced guitarist, the Yamaha will sound dramatically worse when played hard.

Classical guitarists, especially in a concert environment, often play without amps. Volume, tone, clarity, action (to prevent buzzing and fret noise), comfort in long hours of playing and practicing are critical in allowing them to play music and express themselves exactly the way the want to.

Sure, they can still play Via Lobos on a $150 Yahama, but none of them choose to.

Per cameras, Jeff does not think 24p and true progressive scan sets the DVX100 apart from all other miniDV cams.

I think he's quite wrong on this point. As a storyteller, interlaced video is rarely the medium of choice unless you doing mocumentary. 24p progressive is the storytelling medium of our time. Sure, Kubrick, Tarkovsky, Kieslowski, Zucker/Zucker/Abrams, Fincher, etc. could make killer storys on a $200 VHS camera. But they don't.

In fact, I challenge anyone to name a great non-fiction feature or short that was seen interlaced. All the dogma stuff ended up on film at 24p. If you can name just one example, then maybe, the DVX100 is not a special camera for non-fiction people.

I agree the camera is not the important thing - I would have bought 24p miniDV made by JVC, Sony, Canon, Goldstar or ACME. But 24p is important and thus the DVX100 is special.

This thread was about DVX100 vs XL1s for movie shoots. To me it's simple. Movie = 24fps = DVX100. If you shoot XL1s, be prepared for lots of post time in Magic Bullet etc. to get a rough approximation of what DVX100 gets on tape. You add Magic Bullet etc to DVX100 or go out to film and you are getting close to Super 16.