DVX100e difference? at DVinfo.net

E-Gene Soh · January 30th, 2003, 01:18 PM

Hi all,

I'm looking at getting the DVX100e which is the PAL version of the DVX100.

I hope that I don't come out sounding like a goof ball here, but from what I've read, I understand that the PAL version will be 25p and not 24p(which is standard PAL), therefore, is there really any advantage of getting the PAL version (I understand the higher reso thing)? And will it still be able to produce "film-like" shots?

Thank you in advance

Frank Granovski · January 30th, 2003, 05:35 PM

If you live in a NTSC region, don't get PAL. If you want to get a PAL cam for DV to film transfers, the PAL version will give you higher resolution and better color. If you want to use a cam every day in NTSC land, but thinking you might want to shoot something for transfer, go with the NTSC version, unless you can afford more than 1 cam.

Jeff Donald · January 30th, 2003, 06:13 PM

I don't think the human eye can distinguish the difference between 24 frames per second and 25 frames per second.

E-Gene Soh · January 30th, 2003, 08:54 PM

Well, I do live in a PAL region, but I would like to know if that makes the DVX100's special feature redundant?

Frank Granovski · January 30th, 2003, 11:35 PM

If you live in a PAL country, don't even consider the NTSC version of this cam. The NTSC 24P mode is mainly there to give people an extra option for a 3:2 pull-down (film) look. There are a number of issues when shooting in this mode, however.

E-Gene Soh · January 31st, 2003, 04:00 AM

Sorry, but that doesn't answer my question. If the PAL version of this camera shoots at 25p, which is the normal framerate of a PAL camera, how does it give a "filmlook"?

Frank Granovski · January 31st, 2003, 05:24 AM

25P is only 1 frame more than film's 24P. There's a certain film type look with 24P converted to play back on a NTSC TV. We see it all the time: stuff is shot with film, then it's converted for NTSC TV. So PAL countries already have this film look---a little hard on the eyes, though.

E-Gene Soh · January 31st, 2003, 05:27 AM

So is this to say that the "filmlook" function on the DVX100e is redundant?

So why else would anyone buy this camera if not for the 24p function?

Chema Martinez · January 31st, 2003, 05:42 AM

Okey. Pal is 50i as NTSC is 60i. And the dvx 100e is 25p because it divides each double frame interlaced and processes it as two separate fields. It will really be more like 50p. You have to know that if you do not have 50 fields you can not watch your footage in a pal monitor, beacuse as I said Pal is 50i.

Frank Granovski · January 31st, 2003, 05:57 AM

"So is this to say that the "filmlook" function on the DVX100e is redundant?"

No. Because if you shoot movement in 25P, and play it back on a regular TV, it'll be a tad bit choppy. And many regard this as the film look. Same goes for shooting in NTSC's 30P.

The great thing about this cam is that it is a great cam: great audio, high resolution, great controls, progressive, well balanced...it competes with the PD150. The DVX100 just has a few minor issues, very minor. DV Mag. gave it a rating of 4.5 out of 5 stars.

Joe Carney · February 2nd, 2003, 12:26 PM

Frank, according to the latest issue of DV mag, 25p to 24p film just makes the film 4 percent longer. They don't do any special conversion since it's so close. It's literally a frame to frame transfer.

I already have an NTSC camera, so I want the PAL version for the additional resolution and more stable color. Plus other reasons that I've posted before. A bigf part, is I hope to do some principal taping over in Ireland or England.

If vegas or Procoder can't do the PAL to NTSC conversion well enough, I'm sure there is some production facility here in FL that can. Spending a few hundred more dollars at that point won't be a big deal.

I am looking for a good deal on a dual format vtr and monitor.
Any suggestions?

E-Gene Soh · February 3rd, 2003, 01:33 AM

Ok, ok, I know that I'm obviously a little dense here. The problem is that all the reviews that I've been reading are about the NTSC version and none about the PAL one, therefore I'm asking lots of quesions here.

So from what you've said, the PAL DVX100's "filmlook" function, is no different from a normal PAL camera cos they both capture at 25p? Or is there something that I'm missing from the DVX100 that will be able to do that?

Rhett Allen · February 3rd, 2003, 10:52 AM

I don't think the camera even exists yet.
Many a slip twix the cup and the lip!

That means, a lot can change before it's realeased. I haven't heard anything concrete about the PAL version of this camera, only rumors and heresay. I think they (the rumorers) are saying that because 25p is so close to 24p it doesn't make a lot of sense to have both functions. IF you are buying this camera with the intention of blowing the video up to FILM it would be easier, cleaner, and smoother to just use the 25p (of PAL) than the 24p (a version of 3:2 pull down off of 30P). It does make perfect sense, if you understand any of it. If you live in PAL land OR want to make a FILM or both (in your case) do not even consider the NTSC version. Why would you intentionally buy a lower res camera with a more complicated system that isn't even compatible in your region?

Shai Levy · February 3rd, 2003, 11:42 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by E-Gene Soh :
So from what you've said, the PAL DVX100's "filmlook" function, is no different from a normal PAL camera cos they both capture at 25p? Or is there something that I'm missing from the DVX100 that will be able to do that? -->>>

E-Gene, i think you are missing something here... it's the "p" in the 24 or 25p. it is true that all PAL goes 25 fps (= 50i = 50 fields p/s), it doesnt necessarily go 25p (= 25 full frames p/s).

another advantage of the 25p over the 24p is the better pulldown.
it is still not justifying an extra 1000$ over the NTSC version, but life is not so fair as my mother told me more then once... and its even a harder truth when it comes to prosumer cameras!

check this file for deeper information about progressive scan:
images.videosystems.com/files/127/209vsshexp.pdf

btw - the PAL version isn't out yet, but surely exists, since brochures are available as .pdf on the net. it will be out though in a month (that's what i know from the local dealer in Berlin).

greetings,
shai

Philippe Orlando · February 6th, 2003, 05:41 PM

"So from what you've said, the PAL DVX100's "filmlook" function, is no different from a normal PAL camera cos they both capture at 25p? Or is there something that I'm missing from the DVX100 that will be able to do that?"

No, a PAL camera does NOT capture at 25P but at 50i, which means you have a succession of 50 half frames or fields per seconds. One up, one down, one up, one down, etc....

The panasonic DVX100 will capture at 25 frame per seconds, not fields. The resolution will be better. If you go to film you won't have to deinterlace the footage. Just remove one frame per second to match the 24 P or film. If you use a "normal" PAL camera you still have to deinterlace.
If you live in PAL land, honestly don't worry or bother about that Panasonic because if you don't go to film and your footage is seen on a PAL TV what's the heck! 50 interlace will look exactly like 25P. That's the point of interlace. As far as I know you don't see the upper field, then the lower, then the upper, then the lower 50 times per second, right! you have the illusion of 25 frame per seconds. So in PAL land that Panasonic is useless for people who won't transfer to film.
Now the pany will make transfer to film easier for the house transfer, they won't have to deinterlace, but honestly Swiss Effect masters transfering interlaced PAL to Film so well, I wouldn't bother. Check film such as Personal Velocity, Bamboozled, All things put together, all shot with Sony PAL, two of them with a VX-1000 PAL.

It all boils down to; if you have a PD 150 PAL and live in PAl land don't bother about the panasonic. If you do NOt have a camera you should consider the Pany since it's audio capability is superiour to the PD, slighlty, and the Leica Dicomar is really nice, you might also save the price of a wide angle.

I'd say it's going to be a cam for the US. If you're smart you'll wait for Sony answer to that Pany.
Philippe

January 30th, 2003, 01:18 PM	#1
E-Gene Soh New Boot Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 21	DVX100e difference? Hi all, I'm looking at getting the DVX100e which is the PAL version of the DVX100. I hope that I don't come out sounding like a goof ball here, but from what I've read, I understand that the PAL version will be 25p and not 24p(which is standard PAL), therefore, is there really any advantage of getting the PAL version (I understand the higher reso thing)? And will it still be able to produce "film-like" shots? Thank you in advance

January 30th, 2003, 06:13 PM	#3
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I don't think the human eye can distinguish the difference between 24 frames per second and 25 frames per second. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 31st, 2003, 05:42 AM	#9
Chema Martinez New Boot Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Spain Posts: 12	pal Okey. Pal is 50i as NTSC is 60i. And the dvx 100e is 25p because it divides each double frame interlaced and processes it as two separate fields. It will really be more like 50p. You have to know that if you do not have 50 fields you can not watch your footage in a pal monitor, beacuse as I said Pal is 50i.

February 3rd, 2003, 01:33 AM	#12
E-Gene Soh New Boot Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 21	Ok, ok, I know that I'm obviously a little dense here. The problem is that all the reviews that I've been reading are about the NTSC version and none about the PAL one, therefore I'm asking lots of quesions here. So from what you've said, the PAL DVX100's "filmlook" function, is no different from a normal PAL camera cos they both capture at 25p? Or is there something that I'm missing from the DVX100 that will be able to do that? __________________ regards, E-Gene Soh "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"

January 30th, 2003, 05:35 PM	#2
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	If you live in a NTSC region, don't get PAL. If you want to get a PAL cam for DV to film transfers, the PAL version will give you higher resolution and better color. If you want to use a cam every day in NTSC land, but thinking you might want to shoot something for transfer, go with the NTSC version, unless you can afford more than 1 cam.

January 30th, 2003, 08:54 PM	#4
E-Gene Soh New Boot Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 21	Well, I do live in a PAL region, but I would like to know if that makes the DVX100's special feature redundant?

January 30th, 2003, 11:35 PM	#5
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	If you live in a PAL country, don't even consider the NTSC version of this cam. The NTSC 24P mode is mainly there to give people an extra option for a 3:2 pull-down (film) look. There are a number of issues when shooting in this mode, however.

January 31st, 2003, 04:00 AM	#6
E-Gene Soh New Boot Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 21	Sorry, but that doesn't answer my question. If the PAL version of this camera shoots at 25p, which is the normal framerate of a PAL camera, how does it give a "filmlook"?

January 31st, 2003, 05:24 AM	#7
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	25P is only 1 frame more than film's 24P. There's a certain film type look with 24P converted to play back on a NTSC TV. We see it all the time: stuff is shot with film, then it's converted for NTSC TV. So PAL countries already have this film look---a little hard on the eyes, though.

January 31st, 2003, 05:27 AM	#8
E-Gene Soh New Boot Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 21	So is this to say that the "filmlook" function on the DVX100e is redundant? So why else would anyone buy this camera if not for the 24p function?

January 31st, 2003, 05:57 AM	#10
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	"So is this to say that the "filmlook" function on the DVX100e is redundant?" No. Because if you shoot movement in 25P, and play it back on a regular TV, it'll be a tad bit choppy. And many regard this as the film look. Same goes for shooting in NTSC's 30P. The great thing about this cam is that it is a great cam: great audio, high resolution, great controls, progressive, well balanced...it competes with the PD150. The DVX100 just has a few minor issues, very minor. DV Mag. gave it a rating of 4.5 out of 5 stars.

February 2nd, 2003, 12:26 PM	#11
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Frank, according to the latest issue of DV mag, 25p to 24p film just makes the film 4 percent longer. They don't do any special conversion since it's so close. It's literally a frame to frame transfer. I already have an NTSC camera, so I want the PAL version for the additional resolution and more stable color. Plus other reasons that I've posted before. A bigf part, is I hope to do some principal taping over in Ireland or England. If vegas or Procoder can't do the PAL to NTSC conversion well enough, I'm sure there is some production facility here in FL that can. Spending a few hundred more dollars at that point won't be a big deal. I am looking for a good deal on a dual format vtr and monitor. Any suggestions?

February 3rd, 2003, 10:52 AM	#13
Rhett Allen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 607	I don't think the camera even exists yet. Many a slip twix the cup and the lip! That means, a lot can change before it's realeased. I haven't heard anything concrete about the PAL version of this camera, only rumors and heresay. I think they (the rumorers) are saying that because 25p is so close to 24p it doesn't make a lot of sense to have both functions. IF you are buying this camera with the intention of blowing the video up to FILM it would be easier, cleaner, and smoother to just use the 25p (of PAL) than the 24p (a version of 3:2 pull down off of 30P). It does make perfect sense, if you understand any of it. If you live in PAL land OR want to make a FILM or both (in your case) do not even consider the NTSC version. Why would you intentionally buy a lower res camera with a more complicated system that isn't even compatible in your region?

February 3rd, 2003, 11:42 AM	#14
Shai Levy Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 31	<<<-- Originally posted by E-Gene Soh : So from what you've said, the PAL DVX100's "filmlook" function, is no different from a normal PAL camera cos they both capture at 25p? Or is there something that I'm missing from the DVX100 that will be able to do that? -->>> E-Gene, i think you are missing something here... it's the "p" in the 24 or 25p. it is true that all PAL goes 25 fps (= 50i = 50 fields p/s), it doesnt necessarily go 25p (= 25 full frames p/s). another advantage of the 25p over the 24p is the better pulldown. it is still not justifying an extra 1000$ over the NTSC version, but life is not so fair as my mother told me more then once... and its even a harder truth when it comes to prosumer cameras! check this file for deeper information about progressive scan: images.videosystems.com/files/127/209vsshexp.pdf btw - the PAL version isn't out yet, but surely exists, since brochures are available as .pdf on the net. it will be out though in a month (that's what i know from the local dealer in Berlin). greetings, shai

February 6th, 2003, 05:41 PM	#15
Philippe Orlando New Boot Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 22	"So from what you've said, the PAL DVX100's "filmlook" function, is no different from a normal PAL camera cos they both capture at 25p? Or is there something that I'm missing from the DVX100 that will be able to do that?" No, a PAL camera does NOT capture at 25P but at 50i, which means you have a succession of 50 half frames or fields per seconds. One up, one down, one up, one down, etc.... The panasonic DVX100 will capture at 25 frame per seconds, not fields. The resolution will be better. If you go to film you won't have to deinterlace the footage. Just remove one frame per second to match the 24 P or film. If you use a "normal" PAL camera you still have to deinterlace. If you live in PAL land, honestly don't worry or bother about that Panasonic because if you don't go to film and your footage is seen on a PAL TV what's the heck! 50 interlace will look exactly like 25P. That's the point of interlace. As far as I know you don't see the upper field, then the lower, then the upper, then the lower 50 times per second, right! you have the illusion of 25 frame per seconds. So in PAL land that Panasonic is useless for people who won't transfer to film. Now the pany will make transfer to film easier for the house transfer, they won't have to deinterlace, but honestly Swiss Effect masters transfering interlaced PAL to Film so well, I wouldn't bother. Check film such as Personal Velocity, Bamboozled, All things put together, all shot with Sony PAL, two of them with a VX-1000 PAL. It all boils down to; if you have a PD 150 PAL and live in PAl land don't bother about the panasonic. If you do NOt have a camera you should consider the Pany since it's audio capability is superiour to the PD, slighlty, and the Leica Dicomar is really nice, you might also save the price of a wide angle. I'd say it's going to be a cam for the US. If you're smart you'll wait for Sony answer to that Pany. Philippe