Panasonic DVX200 Q&A

[Jack Zhang]

How bad is the dark noise? I've seen samples recompressed from internal recordings and the dark noise is pretty high. Do you have a V-LOG sample screenshot captured from an Odyssey uncompressed of a dark scene for us to show in PNG format? (City lights at night would do)

Getting a bit concerned about the dark noise and if that dark noise is fixed pattern dark noise.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

Getting a bit concerned about the dark noise and if that dark noise is fixed pattern dark noise.

I really cannot see the DVX200 being any better with noise in the shadows than the GH4. It might be, but I highly doubt it.

[Chris Hurd]

Barry -- many thanks! I'm not sure where all the DVX200 discussions are going to live yet. Much appreciated,

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

How bad is the dark noise? I've seen samples recompressed from internal recordings and the dark noise is pretty high. Do you have a V-LOG sample screenshot captured from an Odyssey uncompressed of a dark scene for us to show in PNG format? (City lights at night would do)

Getting a bit concerned about the dark noise and if that dark noise is fixed pattern dark noise.

There is no obvious fixed pattern noise in anything that I've seen. There can be noise in the shadows, depending on the gain level, obviously. I've tested it to ISO 2000 in HD mode, and there's no appreciable visible noise. There's a minor bit of noise, as always, but from any reasonable viewing distance nobody would be able to see it. If you go beyond 2000 ISO, yes there's more visible noise, although I still think it's completely usable at 4000 ISO and reasonably clean. At 8000 there's noise, at 16000 there's a lot of noise, and at 32000 there's a whole lot.

But in general it's quite clean to at least 2000. Matthew Allard said that he considers it acceptable up to 3200, although he'd limit his own use to 2000. I don't know if his assessment was made using NORM SENS(itivity) or HIGH SENS though. The HIGH SENS mode doubles the gain and uses more aggressive noise reduction, so the images end up twice as bright and even cleaner than at NORM SENS. I would guess that Mr. Allard was likely using normal sensitivity, and that should mean that on a noise-by-noise basis, you'd be able to double the effective usable ISO while maintaining a comparable overall noise level.

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

I really cannot see the DVX200 being any better with noise in the shadows than the GH4. It might be, but I highly doubt it.

The DVX200 uses a different sensor than the GH4 does. It's the next-generation sensor, likely what will end up in a future GH5 at some point. So you cannot expect to directly compare the sensor characteristics between the two cameras. I don't have a GH4 to compare against the DVX200 so I can't say how different they may be.

Also, the firmware the camera is running is not yet final. While it's unlikely that there will be substantial changes made in these last few weeks before shipping, I still would say that image assessments should wait until the product is in its final form, because that is the only form that matters to the buying public.

[Jack Zhang]

Okay, so that was H264 compression playing tricks on a sample I saw for fixed pattern noise.

And a 16:9 sensor would more likely make it into an AF200 rather than the GH5 cause the series for the stills camera sensor would likely be a 3:2 aspect ratio. (and hopefully without ridiculous crop factor in higher frame rate readouts)

[Barry Green]

FYI, the first official DVX200 footage shot by the factory is now out.

・"A Day Of Life"
Vimeo(En)

Shot on AG-DVX200: A Day of Life on Vimeo

・"A Day Of Life -Behind The Scenes" FHD
Vimeo(En)

A Day of Life - Behind The Scenes on Vimeo

[Barry Green]

Another new video has been posted. This one is "Official V-Log Footage."

DVX200 V-Log L Official Footage on Vimeo

[Tim Palmer-Benson]

I have had the DVX200 for about a week. It has a steep learning curve, and I miss being able to see an exposure meter. It doesn't have one! Proper exposure is critical with this camera, just as it is with the AF100. You must use the Waveform monitor, but it doesn't display while you are recording! Bummer!
It produces the Panasonic "look" if you know what I mean and it is certainly an improvement over the AGC160A...One thing that is useful is that for depositions, it will time and date stamp your video. Then, the OIS is not bad, I tried it with a monopod stuck through the roof of my Rav4 and on paved road it was really good, but not so good on dirt road. In standard default scene file one, I found I had to give the saturation a little boost, but other than that, I am pretty satisfied with the color. The picture in 4K in nice looking and seems a little sharper than a GH4 with a 12mm lens.

Past Peak but still some color! on Vimeo

[Bruce Lomasky]

I am still learning all the "fun stuff" with the 200, but I assigned the histogram to a user button, so that gives me an idea on how much I have messed up the exposure!

Bruce

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

How bad is the dark noise?

FYI, they just released a new firmware update today, and one of the specific things they addressed is black dot noise in the shadows. It was comparable to prior Panasonics in the previous firmware, but in this latest firmware they've really cleaned up the "grit" that could happen in the shadows. The result is an overall smoother, nicer, cleaner texture to the images.

There are other changes too, including improved color (especially for overexposed skin) and new Fast Scan modes that reduce or eliminate any "rolling shutter" concerns.

[Matthew C. Abourezk]

Hi Barry... (longtime fan of your HVX book and DVDs)...

Also a proud owner of the DVX 200 for the past week.

Wondering if you have any suggestions for custom scene files with this camera?

The options are so overwhelming and I need to get in and shoot. I am technically inclined, but I am a loooong way from understanding what all of the options are in the scene file customization menus.

I read a post from you that said you are working on a new book for the DVX200 that we will get for free (?)... any progress toward that end?

And finally, do you have the ear of Panasonic in terms of giving them feedback for firmware upgrades? Just curious.

Thanks a bunch Barry and keep up the good work. Matt

[Matthew C. Abourezk]

Originally Posted by Barry Green

The HIGH SENS mode doubles the gain and uses more aggressive noise reduction, so the images end up twice as bright and even cleaner than at NORM SENS. .

Barry, so when shooting indoors in natural light, should I use HIGH SENS? Seems like a win-win if it doubles the sensitivity of the sensor and creates an image that is cleaner than NORM SENS.

Any setbacks to using HIGH SENS?

Matt

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Matthew C. Abourezk

Barry, so when shooting indoors in natural light, should I use HIGH SENS? Seems like a win-win if it doubles the sensitivity of the sensor and creates an image that is cleaner than NORM SENS.

Any setbacks to using HIGH SENS?

Matt

There's a thread about just this subject already - http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasoni...vity-mode.html

From that it would seem it's modifying the gamma curve to lessen the noise in the blacks, or only applying the gain higher up the exposure curve if you like.

My conclusion was : "It sounds like a valid technique if the footage is to be used directly as shot, but if subject to any grading or post I'd think the "High Sensitivity" mode may be a bad idea? Better just to put in 6dB of gain in normal mode, and then do something similar in post - when the amount is under control and not burnt in? " The SENSOR sensitivity is a fixed quantity, what this seems to be doing is modifying the curve to hide the noise for moderate gain levels.

[Matthew C. Abourezk]

Hi David, Thanks for the reply. After doing a few quick tests, I ended up using High Sensitivity on an event shoot last week. I had no plans to grade or manipulate the footage so I just needed it to be as clean as possible out of the camera. I had upgraded the firmware to 1.25.

The event (boring gig that paid some bills) was a presentation in front of a PPT projected screen. I have shot three of these previously for the same company with the PX270, which is a higher-end (and more expensive) P2 camera.

The footage from the 200 held up well in comparison to the 270. I would say that in general it looks better with cleaner shadows.

It was interesting to see that the High Sensitivity locks the gain at a full stop up. (I use ISO instead of DB in the 200 display)... instead of the base ISO of 500, the minimum I could go in High SENS was ISO 1000). So I guess that validates the point that the sensitivity is doubled but the curve kills the blacks to hide the grain.

With all of that said... although the footage from the 200 is less grainy than the 270, there is less dynamic range overall (I didn't shoot V-LOG). The highlights in the 200 footage are missing much of the detail that the 270 was able to pick up. I carefully set my exposure for the (mostly white) PPT slides and the WFM showed nothing blowing out... it just seemed that the 200 was less able to differentiate between the white background and the light blue text).