DVFilm Maker for DVX100

[Marcus van Bavel]

We have posted a prototype version of DVFilm Maker which will convert DVX100 Advanced 24P from NTSC 2:3:3:2 pulldown to true 24P, without recompression. Right now this test version is available only for the Mac, OS9 or OSX. The Windows prototype will be available around Oct 1st.

For a brief description and download see
www.dvfilm.com/maker/dvx100.htm

If there are any comments or suggestions we will try to incorporate them before the release.

[Stephen van Vuuren]

I will download the PC version as soon as it's posted. Of course, I only have a clip I downloaded off the web. A camera would help :)

Anyway, thanks for posting and glad you guys have made this available so quickly.

This should make my post much easier to do, especially if Premiere will let me edit at 23.976 with my RT2000.

But AE work will be much easier.

[Chris Hurd]

Marcus, will you be attending the upcoming Austin film festival in October? I'll be there for the whole thing, I think.

[Marcus van Bavel]

I'll definitely be in Austin, since I live there :) Might be too busy to go to the festival however, we have 3 features to transfer to film. But look for our transfers of "Blink" (3D animated short to 35mm) which is really cool, and the Austin Film Festival trailers which show before every film (35mm->DV->35mm) which we also did.

By the way, due to popular demand, I have posted a
Windows version of the DVFilm Maker - DVX100 prototype
software. There are some limitations, but it should be
useful for testing. See

http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/dvx100.htm

[Rodger Marjama]

Hello,

I have been using the DVFilm Maker PC Demo version converting some 2:3:3:2 footage to uncompress quicktime from DVX100 clips for testing purposes.

Does your program provide the encoder/decoder codac within itself for conversion/playback, or is it using others which may be on the system? I understand you are not recompression frames, only dropping the single interlaced frame in each 5 frame segment, but since you do provide a player, I am curious as to what codac you may be using.

Would you know why, when playing clips from within your program, microblock artifacts which are viewable in other players/editors, are not visabily appearent in yours.

As these artifacts are of major concern to most, if not all of us on the 2 Pop Discussion Board, DVX100 forum, your help in understanding what I have been seeing on my computer while conducting these tests could be very useful in helping many of us decide whether or not to buy this 24P camera.

Thanks for info you can share.

-Rodger

[Marcus van Bavel]

DVFilm Maker uses the Quicktime DV codec exclusively, even for decoding AVI's.

The reason the image looks better in Maker is because the codec is configured by the program to display both fields and in "high quality" mode, so basically you see every pixel. This is the image which would be used for a transfer to film.

Other programs may show only one field, or they may show half the pixels in one field, in order to play it back more quickly.

When you play NTSC-DV through the firewire port to a DV deck and NTSC monitor, you see every pixel and both fields, but only one field at a time, not simultaneously as it would be on film. That may explain why some people see flicker in the 24P footage. But it would not affect the transfer to film.

If 24P is used to create NTSC footage for broadcast, it needs to be softened a little bit in the vertical direction to reduce flicker. But you wouldn't want the camera to do that, because it would soften the film transfer. It's best done in post. The eventual release version of DVFilm Maker will allow that, convert 24P to NTSC with a 3:2 pulldown and a little bit of (optional) vertical blending.

By the way what I have seen so far of the DVX100 Advanced 24P looks very good from our perspective of a DV to Film transfer, provided Maker is used as the first step in editing to remove the 2:3:3:2 pulldown.

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Marcus:

What's your thoughts on FX/Compositing and this camera?

Working with fields/interlaced in AE is always a pain. I"m considering shooting 24P (Advanced or Normal), using AE or Maker to remove pulldown, work with file in AE at 24fps, the output back to NTSC, maybe using AE to add pulldown back in?

I'm worried of recompression in the above workflow and doing it uncompressed may get unwieldy for longer projects.

Plus, not sure if AE is up to pulldown tasks. Could Maker help?

[Marcus van Bavel]

This sounds like a circular argument but here it is:

You need effects in your movie but suppose you have scenes that do not require effects. You would not want to use AE just to remove pulldown from raw footage for later editing, because AE would recompress it whereas Maker would not.

Because of that reason, you should always shoot the Advanced 24P mode because it allows Maker to work without recompression. Hence the whole movie needs to be shot in the Advanced Mode unless you want to switch back and forth all the time, which would be a pain.

And hence you would always use Maker as a front end to AE because AE cannot remove 2:3:3:2 pulldown. Fortunately there is no loss in quality in doing that because Maker does not recompress.

[Rodger Marjama]

<<<-- Originally posted by Marcus van Bavel : DVFilm Maker uses the Quicktime DV codec exclusively, even for decoding AVI's.

The reason the image looks better in Maker is because the codec is configured by the program to display both fields and in "high quality" mode, so basically you see every pixel. This is the image which would be used for a transfer to film.

Other programs may show only one field, or they may show half the pixels in one field, in order to play it back more quickly.

When you play NTSC-DV through the firewire port to a DV deck and NTSC monitor, you see every pixel and both fields, but only one field at a time, not simultaneously as it would be on film. That may explain why some people see flicker in the 24P footage. But it would not affect the transfer to film.

If 24P is used to create NTSC footage for broadcast, it needs to be softened a little bit in the vertical direction to reduce flicker. But you wouldn't want the camera to do that, because it would soften the film transfer. It's best done in post. The eventual release version of DVFilm Maker will allow that, convert 24P to NTSC with a 3:2 pulldown and a little bit of (optional) vertical blending.

By the way what I have seen so far of the DVX100 Advanced 24P looks very good from our perspective of a DV to Film transfer, provided Maker is used as the first step in editing to remove the 2:3:3:2 pulldown. -->>>

Thanks for your reply...

But now, by what you have said above, I can only believe my Quicktime Player is not functioning properly -- either by intent (because I have the free version), or because it is damaged in some way. Would you know which is most likely?

-Rodger

Update - Only Quicktime Pro will allow the "High Quality" setting... So I guess if I want to see the full flavor of these DVX100 clips on my monitore, I'll have to spend the 30 bucks.

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Marcus:

Thanks. I did not realize that Advanced Mode was the only way Maker could remove pulldown without compression. That makes the workflow decision much simpler.

Hey Marcus I'm curious to know if you could recommend any codecs for the Playback/editing of 24p footage on a PC after you've removed the pulldown.

I know Quicktime is the standard on a Mac...anything other than what Windows offers on a PC?

[Marcus van Bavel]

<<<-- Originally posted by aaronscool : Hey Marcus I'm curious to know if you could recommend any codecs for the Playback/editing of 24p footage on a PC after you've removed the pulldown.

I know Quicktime is the standard on a Mac...anything other than what Windows offers on a PC? -->>>

The editing codec has to be DV-NTSC to avoid recompression. Quicktime for Windows can play back 24P DV in real time, depending on the quality settings, screen size and the speed of your computer.

Sometimes here we use other methods to do motion tests of 24P material. For example, export as a PAL-DV for playback through a PAL deck and monitor, or export at MJPEG-B at 50-75% quality to playback full-size in real time on the computer screen.

I hope that is helpful.

Any idea how to get Quicktime to Preview at better/full resolution in Premiere? When I've tested the reverse pulldown and loaded the clip into a Premiere project setup to use the Quicktime codec the preview window seems to show a very compressed image. (similar to playing a DV clip with the standard QT player and not adjusting the picture settings).

I know this is a bit out of your realm of responsibility, but if you have any advice it'd sure help me plan out how I'm going to edit 24p.

Thanks,
Aaron

[Marcus van Bavel]

<<<-- Originally posted by aaronscool : Any idea how to get Quicktime to Preview at better/full resolution in Premiere? When I've tested the reverse pulldown and loaded the clip into a Premiere project setup to use the Quicktime codec the preview window seems to show a very compressed image. (similar to playing a DV clip with the standard QT player and not adjusting the picture settings). -->>>

In Premiere 6 there is a setting (project settings, general, playback) for
high-quality playback and scrubbing. Some computers may not be able to play high-quality mode in real time.

Incidently several people have asked how you can view 24P in real time on
an NTSC monitor. There is a product by ATI (Radeon 7500) which supports a 2nd monitor for an extended desktop. The 2nd monitor can be an NTSC monitor, so you just drag the Premiere preview window to the 2nd monitor and resize to fit. It will show approximately the same contrast and color as if the footage were being played back through the firewire port, although not with the same clarity.

Perhaps I missed it.

Marcus or another, could someone clarify exactly why the in-camera, during-recording-step 3:2 pulldown in the Pana camera (or the reversal of this step) has an effect on the resulting vertical resolution whereas the 2:3:3:2 "24p Advanced" setting in the camera (or the reversal of this step) does not have such an effect and thus can return the frames to their original resolution at 24p (i.e. 23.98p)?

Also, Since Apple has announced support at some point for the advanced mode (which I'll understand after an answer to the above) in FCP, has Adobe been silent on Premiere re the same?

Thanks