DVFilm Maker for DVX100

Marcus van Bavel · October 6th, 2002, 08:34 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Stuart Kupinsky : Perhaps I missed it.

Marcus or another, could someone clarify exactly why the in-camera, during-recording-step 3:2 pulldown in the Pana camera (or the reversal of this step) has an effect on the resulting vertical resolution whereas the 2:3:3:2 "24p Advanced" setting in the camera (or the reversal of this step) does not have such an effect and thus can return the frames to their original resolution at 24p (i.e. 23.98p)?

Also, Since Apple has announced support at some point for the advanced mode (which I'll understand after an answer to the above) in FCP, has Adobe been silent on Premiere re the same?

Thanks -->>>

Both methods have the same vertical resolution. The difference is that 2:3:3:2 can be converted to 24P without recompression. The film frames 1-4 are distributed among the 10 video fields as follows: 11 22 23 33 44 and the video frame with 23 can be removed and the others left as-is without recompression. In 3:2 pulldown the fields are 11 12 23 33 44 and film frame 2 cannot be extracted without uncompressing and then recompressing with a shuffling of the fields (in the DV format fields are not stored separately). This latter method pretty much torpedoes the idea of editing DV without recompression.

By the way to get support for pulldown removal & restore in FCP I think you will have to buy Cinema Tools ($1000?) whereas DVFilm Maker is only $95. I'm putting the final touches on it and it will be ready soon.

Rodger Marjama · October 6th, 2002, 08:42 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Marcus van Bavel :
By the way to get support for pulldown removal & restore in FCP I think you will have to buy Cinema Tools ($1000?) whereas DVFilm Maker is only $95. I'm putting the final touches on it and it will be ready soon. -->>>

I hope the "ready soon" will also include the PC version.

-Rodger

Stuart Kupinsky · October 7th, 2002, 07:37 PM

Thanks Marcus -- I think I get it. I guess the assumption is that one will edit in the compressed DV format and thus with 3:2 pulldown a recompression step back into DV format is necessary, rather than just a reshuffling of the cards, so to speak, with 2:3:3:2. Once your program is done with the latter, I believe I read above that you output in Quicktime in some minorly compressed format, no?

And I echo Rodger -- hopefully PC....

Marcus van Bavel · October 14th, 2002, 07:58 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by marjamar : I hope the "ready soon" will also include the PC version.
-Rodger -->>>

Yes, both the Windows and Mac version will be released soon, sometime around Oct 17th I hope. It's all running but still a bug or two to track down. The documentation on the website may take longer to catch up. I'll post an update here.

Marcus van Bavel · October 15th, 2002, 09:52 PM

The Windows version of DVFilm Maker for the DVX100 is now on line and you can order it ($95). The demo version can be downloaded here: http://www.dvfilm.com/maker

The Mac version will be available soon.

Here is a brief description of the 24P options and their use on a Windows sytem:

PRE-EDIT PROCESSING

24P is easier to edit for transfer to film and works better with digital effects than interlaced NTSC, so DVFilm Maker exists to convert DVX100 footage to true 24P before editing. We are also offering a 10% discount off our published rates on DV to film transfers, to registered users of DVFilm Maker that shoot with the DVX100 Advanced 24P mode and use this software for the editing process. The project must be submitted to us as a true 24P Quicktime.

The Pre-Edit modes are used after you have captured the video but before editing. Note that Quicktime is always used for true 24P video because there is no standard for DV-AVI's of 24 frames/sec (and they will make the Windows Media Player bomb out).

All pre-edit processing is done without recompression so there is no loss in quality.

After capturing, open the DV-AVI with DVFilm Maker.

Convert 2:3:3:2 pulldown to 24P

This option reads an NTSC DV-AVI shot in Advanced 24P mode and captured with Premiere or other editing program, and converts it to a true 24P Quicktime. The audio sample rate of the QT is set to 48048 Hz. The resulting QT can be edited with Premiere with the frame rate set to exactly 24 frames/sec and audio rate set to 48048 ("Other"). If you bring in audio from an external source to mix with your camera sound, the sample rate must be jammed to 48048 before importing it into the editor, otherwise the editor will attempt a rate conversion to 48048. The sample rate change can be done with a program such as Sound Forge.

Convert 2:3:3:2 pulldown to 23.976P

This option reads an NTSC DV-AVI shot in Advanced 24P mode and captured with Premiere or other editing program, and converts it to a true 23.976P Quicktime. The audio sample rate of the QT is set to 48000 Hz. Since no special audio rates are used this mode can be somewhat easier to use, as long as your editor has a setting for video frame rate of "23.98" (which is actually 23.976).

POST-EDIT PROCESSING

These modes are used after the video has been edited in a 24P or 23.976P timeline, and it must be converted to NTSC for broadcast or digital projection.

The first step is to export your final cut as a DV-NTSC compressed Quicktime at 24 or 23.976 frames/sec as appropriate and open it with DVFilm Maker.

Convert 24P/23.976P to NTSC 3:2 pulldown.

Converts a 24 or 23.976 frames/sec Quicktime to an NTSC DV-AVI which can be recorded out to Firewire using Premiere or your video card software. The 3:2 pulldown is the smoothest method and simulates film telecine to NTSC.

Convert 24P/23.976P to NTSC 2:3:3:2 pulldown.

Converts a 24 or 23.976 frames/sec Quicktime to an NTSC DV-AVI which can be recorded out to Firewire using Premiere or your video card software. The 2:3:3:2 pulldown is not as smooth, but this the best way to archive a 24P final cut if you had to bring it back in later for more editing.

Flicker removal

Set to a value 0 through 4 to reduce the flicker effect of progressive-scan video converted to interlaced NTSC, by blending pixels in the vertical direction only.

0 is for no flicker removal. 4 is the maximum value.

Film Effects

The simulated film grain and red layer boost features of DVFilm Maker can be used in conjunction with 24P post-edit processing. These options are in the regular options pop-up and can be fine-tuned in the Advanced Options popup.

Other options such as the deinterlacer and motion detector mask are ignored in 24P processing and are turned off automatically when you select a 24P option.

Stephen van Vuuren · October 15th, 2002, 10:08 PM

Marcus:

Thanks for the info. A couple of questions:

Per flicker removal. How important is this? What resolution loss involved in removal of flicker on moving shots?

Any possibility of this becoming a capture app - i.e. not having to double drive space (though space is getting pretty cheap).

Finally, does your product work with or compete with Blade 2.0 from insync?

thanks,

Marcus van Bavel · October 16th, 2002, 10:36 AM

<<<<Per flicker removal. How important is this? What resolution loss involved in removal of flicker on moving shots?>>>>>

Some is needed. The loss of resolution (at level 3) is about 50%.

<<<<Any possibility of this becoming a capture app - i.e. not having to double drive space (though space is getting pretty cheap).>>>>

No. It's low cost, broad-use application that is not dependent on a particular capture product or editing program.

<<<<Finally, does your product work with or compete with Blade 2.0 from insync?>>>

Don't know I haven't tried Blade on DVX100 footage. Have you?

Stephen van Vuuren · October 16th, 2002, 11:06 AM

Thanks for the info. I guess I'm not seeing the flicker problems with 24P mode. I like the look.

Per Blade, I have not downloaded as the demo for 2.0 was not ready the last time I checked the site.

Rodger Marjama · October 16th, 2002, 11:18 AM

As soon as I get the DVX100 I will order your program as well. I will be another month or 2 before I am ready to buy the DVX100 though.

Thanks for making DVFilm Maker compatable with 24P Advance Mode pulldown.

-Rodger

October 16th, 2002, 02:53 PM

Kudos Marcus. Thanks especially for adding the flicker removal. I forgot to ask this as a feature for NTSC output.

I'll likely be purchasing Maker when I get my DVX100 in a month or two.

For people who may have these questions:
1. Premiere on the PC with the QT pro codec will allow you to have a playback rate of 23.976. I believe the same is true on the MAC in both Premiere and FCP. Make sure when outputting from DVFilm Maker that you leave the file in it's default .mov (quicktime) format.

2. You can get realtime TV output from your preview Window in Premiere if you do the following (Works with 24P!):
--Purchase a dual monitor capable card with a TV output. (Nvidia GeForce 4 works for sure but ATI's Radeon 7500 or higher series should also have similar abilities).
--On the latest WHQL or higher NVIDIA drivers set Overlay to FULL SCREEN on your TV output. (Not sure how to do this with ATI but it's basically the process that allows you to watch a DVD on your TV while keeping your desktop on your computer monitor.)

I'm also not sure how to set this up if at all on a MAC but I believe it may be possible.

October 6th, 2002, 08:34 PM	#16
Marcus van Bavel Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Austin TX Posts: 176	Re: 3:2 versus 2:3:3:2 Explained <<<-- Originally posted by Stuart Kupinsky : Perhaps I missed it. Marcus or another, could someone clarify exactly why the in-camera, during-recording-step 3:2 pulldown in the Pana camera (or the reversal of this step) has an effect on the resulting vertical resolution whereas the 2:3:3:2 "24p Advanced" setting in the camera (or the reversal of this step) does not have such an effect and thus can return the frames to their original resolution at 24p (i.e. 23.98p)? Also, Since Apple has announced support at some point for the advanced mode (which I'll understand after an answer to the above) in FCP, has Adobe been silent on Premiere re the same? Thanks -->>> Both methods have the same vertical resolution. The difference is that 2:3:3:2 can be converted to 24P without recompression. The film frames 1-4 are distributed among the 10 video fields as follows: 11 22 23 33 44 and the video frame with 23 can be removed and the others left as-is without recompression. In 3:2 pulldown the fields are 11 12 23 33 44 and film frame 2 cannot be extracted without uncompressing and then recompressing with a shuffling of the fields (in the DV format fields are not stored separately). This latter method pretty much torpedoes the idea of editing DV without recompression. By the way to get support for pulldown removal & restore in FCP I think you will have to buy Cinema Tools ($1000?) whereas DVFilm Maker is only $95. I'm putting the final touches on it and it will be ready soon.

October 6th, 2002, 08:42 PM	#17
Rodger Marjama Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 101	Re: Re: 3:2 versus 2:3:3:2 Explained <<<-- Originally posted by Marcus van Bavel : By the way to get support for pulldown removal & restore in FCP I think you will have to buy Cinema Tools ($1000?) whereas DVFilm Maker is only $95. I'm putting the final touches on it and it will be ready soon. -->>> I hope the "ready soon" will also include the PC version. -Rodger

October 7th, 2002, 07:37 PM	#18
Stuart Kupinsky Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 82	Thanks Marcus -- I think I get it. I guess the assumption is that one will edit in the compressed DV format and thus with 3:2 pulldown a recompression step back into DV format is necessary, rather than just a reshuffling of the cards, so to speak, with 2:3:3:2. Once your program is done with the latter, I believe I read above that you output in Quicktime in some minorly compressed format, no? And I echo Rodger -- hopefully PC.... __________________ DVX100A/AT4071a/Vegas/After Effects Dual 2GHz Xeon PC

October 14th, 2002, 07:58 PM	#19
Marcus van Bavel Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Austin TX Posts: 176	Re: Re: Re: 3:2 versus 2:3:3:2 Explained <<<-- Originally posted by marjamar : I hope the "ready soon" will also include the PC version. -Rodger -->>> Yes, both the Windows and Mac version will be released soon, sometime around Oct 17th I hope. It's all running but still a bug or two to track down. The documentation on the website may take longer to catch up. I'll post an update here.

October 15th, 2002, 09:52 PM	#20
Marcus van Bavel Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Austin TX Posts: 176	Windows version released The Windows version of DVFilm Maker for the DVX100 is now on line and you can order it ($95). The demo version can be downloaded here: http://www.dvfilm.com/maker The Mac version will be available soon. Here is a brief description of the 24P options and their use on a Windows sytem: PRE-EDIT PROCESSING 24P is easier to edit for transfer to film and works better with digital effects than interlaced NTSC, so DVFilm Maker exists to convert DVX100 footage to true 24P before editing. We are also offering a 10% discount off our published rates on DV to film transfers, to registered users of DVFilm Maker that shoot with the DVX100 Advanced 24P mode and use this software for the editing process. The project must be submitted to us as a true 24P Quicktime. The Pre-Edit modes are used after you have captured the video but before editing. Note that Quicktime is always used for true 24P video because there is no standard for DV-AVI's of 24 frames/sec (and they will make the Windows Media Player bomb out). All pre-edit processing is done without recompression so there is no loss in quality. After capturing, open the DV-AVI with DVFilm Maker. Convert 2:3:3:2 pulldown to 24P This option reads an NTSC DV-AVI shot in Advanced 24P mode and captured with Premiere or other editing program, and converts it to a true 24P Quicktime. The audio sample rate of the QT is set to 48048 Hz. The resulting QT can be edited with Premiere with the frame rate set to exactly 24 frames/sec and audio rate set to 48048 ("Other"). If you bring in audio from an external source to mix with your camera sound, the sample rate must be jammed to 48048 before importing it into the editor, otherwise the editor will attempt a rate conversion to 48048. The sample rate change can be done with a program such as Sound Forge. Convert 2:3:3:2 pulldown to 23.976P This option reads an NTSC DV-AVI shot in Advanced 24P mode and captured with Premiere or other editing program, and converts it to a true 23.976P Quicktime. The audio sample rate of the QT is set to 48000 Hz. Since no special audio rates are used this mode can be somewhat easier to use, as long as your editor has a setting for video frame rate of "23.98" (which is actually 23.976). POST-EDIT PROCESSING These modes are used after the video has been edited in a 24P or 23.976P timeline, and it must be converted to NTSC for broadcast or digital projection. The first step is to export your final cut as a DV-NTSC compressed Quicktime at 24 or 23.976 frames/sec as appropriate and open it with DVFilm Maker. Convert 24P/23.976P to NTSC 3:2 pulldown. Converts a 24 or 23.976 frames/sec Quicktime to an NTSC DV-AVI which can be recorded out to Firewire using Premiere or your video card software. The 3:2 pulldown is the smoothest method and simulates film telecine to NTSC. Convert 24P/23.976P to NTSC 2:3:3:2 pulldown. Converts a 24 or 23.976 frames/sec Quicktime to an NTSC DV-AVI which can be recorded out to Firewire using Premiere or your video card software. The 2:3:3:2 pulldown is not as smooth, but this the best way to archive a 24P final cut if you had to bring it back in later for more editing. Flicker removal Set to a value 0 through 4 to reduce the flicker effect of progressive-scan video converted to interlaced NTSC, by blending pixels in the vertical direction only. 0 is for no flicker removal. 4 is the maximum value. Film Effects The simulated film grain and red layer boost features of DVFilm Maker can be used in conjunction with 24P post-edit processing. These options are in the regular options pop-up and can be fine-tuned in the Advanced Options popup. Other options such as the deinterlacer and motion detector mask are ignored in 24P processing and are turned off automatically when you select a 24P option.

October 15th, 2002, 10:08 PM	#21
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Marcus: Thanks for the info. A couple of questions: Per flicker removal. How important is this? What resolution loss involved in removal of flicker on moving shots? Any possibility of this becoming a capture app - i.e. not having to double drive space (though space is getting pretty cheap). Finally, does your product work with or compete with Blade 2.0 from insync? thanks, __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

October 16th, 2002, 10:36 AM	#22
Marcus van Bavel Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Austin TX Posts: 176	<<<<Per flicker removal. How important is this? What resolution loss involved in removal of flicker on moving shots?>>>>> Some is needed. The loss of resolution (at level 3) is about 50%. <<<<Any possibility of this becoming a capture app - i.e. not having to double drive space (though space is getting pretty cheap).>>>> No. It's low cost, broad-use application that is not dependent on a particular capture product or editing program. <<<<Finally, does your product work with or compete with Blade 2.0 from insync?>>> Don't know I haven't tried Blade on DVX100 footage. Have you?

October 16th, 2002, 11:06 AM	#23
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Thanks for the info. I guess I'm not seeing the flicker problems with 24P mode. I like the look. Per Blade, I have not downloaded as the demo for 2.0 was not ready the last time I checked the site. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

October 16th, 2002, 11:18 AM	#24
Rodger Marjama Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 101	Put me down for a copy... As soon as I get the DVX100 I will order your program as well. I will be another month or 2 before I am ready to buy the DVX100 though. Thanks for making DVFilm Maker compatable with 24P Advance Mode pulldown. -Rodger

October 16th, 2002, 02:53 PM	#25
aaronscool Posts: n/a	Kudos Marcus. Thanks especially for adding the flicker removal. I forgot to ask this as a feature for NTSC output. I'll likely be purchasing Maker when I get my DVX100 in a month or two. For people who may have these questions: 1. Premiere on the PC with the QT pro codec will allow you to have a playback rate of 23.976. I believe the same is true on the MAC in both Premiere and FCP. Make sure when outputting from DVFilm Maker that you leave the file in it's default .mov (quicktime) format. 2. You can get realtime TV output from your preview Window in Premiere if you do the following (Works with 24P!): --Purchase a dual monitor capable card with a TV output. (Nvidia GeForce 4 works for sure but ATI's Radeon 7500 or higher series should also have similar abilities). --On the latest WHQL or higher NVIDIA drivers set Overlay to FULL SCREEN on your TV output. (Not sure how to do this with ATI but it's basically the process that allows you to watch a DVD on your TV while keeping your desktop on your computer monitor.) I'm also not sure how to set this up if at all on a MAC but I believe it may be possible.