Disappionted in DVX-doesn't look like "Wild Boyz"-what I'm I doing wrong

[John Trent]

I saw a DVX100 hooked up to a pro monitor & was extremely unimpressed. The 30P was slightly jerky but usable, the 24P modes were IMHO completely unusable for anything staying on a TV screen due to horrible strobbing. The slower shutters looked strange like some kind of digital fx.

I gave up on the camera but have since seen some AMAZING footage on "Wild Boyz", "Family Bonds", & even out-of-studio "Regis & Kelly" that I think are all shot on this camera. So what gives?

1) once recorded to tape & played back does it look different from what it looks like plugged into a monitor?

2) Does the DVX100[A] have better pulldown & shutter looks?

3)Are they running it through something in post to improve the footage?

Thank you in advance.

[Stefan Scherperel]

There are a lot of factors that will make footage from the DVX100-or 100a look good. First and most important, the motion rendering from the 100 and 100a are exactly the same, and wildboys has been out longer than the 100a so I am sure that they have used the regular 100 on the show.
Second, it really depends on how you use the camera. You said that things were "stroby"? What things were stroby? Were you panning, or just watching onscreen movement.
Finally, what could have been throwing you off would be if the camera were in 24pA mode instead of 24pn mode. If viewing on a production monitor in 24pA mode, you will encounter duplicate frames that will make the footage appear much more "stroby". When editing this footage in your NLE like Vegas, or FCP, it will remove these extra frames so that you are working with true 24fps video.
Many people love the look of the DVX-XL2 in 24p mode, however there are some that just don't. I guess that is a matter of opinion. Having worked with a lot of super8mm footage in the past, I can tell you that in 24p mode, the DVX motion rendering is exact. It is actually sampling at a true 24fps, unlike some newer cameras with faux 24p modes.
If you watch poorly shot DVD's that were telecined from film, even many Hollywood movies, on an interlaced monitor, and even progressive scan monitors, excessive movement of the camera, especially panning, will cause strobing on the screen. This is inherant to film in that the motion is only sampled at 24fps.
I have quite a few shorts that I have shot on my website that were shot with the DVX. Check them out and see if you still see the strobing effect that turned you off from the camera. I reccomend TQFS (the quest for stress) which was a mixture of a Sony TRV 20 and a DVX but the sony was recompressed to 24fps to match the DVX. Also check out Tiff and Dee Dee wich was all DVX.

http://www.stefweb.net

[Peter Jefferson]

what a great response :)

Progressive scan is one of those things akin to Dolby Digital, whereby if you know how to use it properly u can ge some great results.

I get alot of people asking why bother with progressive, also alot of other people who are a lil taken aback and dont understand the true value of it, end up believing that its only use is to extract stills and dont recognsie that Progressive is DIFFERENT from frame mode..

Motion is what its about....

[Peter Jefferson]

oh one thing i forgot to mention, almost everything u see on tv has been corrected in some way shape or form.

I havent seen the shows ur referring to, however i do know that the dvx100a is a little more grainier than the standard DVX. Ive got both and took them both out and find that the standard is a lot cleaner in lower light, in good light, the RGB CPU of the 100a really does make a difference..

[Ryan Koo]

Wild Boyz is color-corrected out the ying-yang. That's why it looks like it does, although the DVX is definiltely an essential component to "the look". I've only seen probably 5 minutes of the show but it looks like they are pressing the blacks and jacking the saturation up in post, as well as applying a filter to bloom the highlights.

The motion rendering on your camera should be the same, however....

[John Trent]

Thanks for the response guys, but I'm still a little in the dark here. It's good to know the motion rendering is the same on both models. Is the slower shutter effect the same? I read the that the (A) model had improvements on both the pulldown & shutter looks.

Does it look different after it's recorded to tape & played back, as opposed to just viewing the camera's video out
(composite) cable hooked to a monitor - without any taping being done?

I've worked with Super 8, seen countless movies, & never seen strobbing like this except for some TV which was shot progressive or made jerky so as to appear so - MTV mostly. This is why "Wildboyz" interests me. Unless in the actual taping the problem is fixed, something is done in post to add smoothness or motion blur. When they move the camera all about on "Wildboyz" (which seems to me to have a 24f cadence) it's a smooth & natural filmlook. I realize it's all color corrected, I'm more interested in the motion.

On the show's credits they list Avid as the editor, is this software involved in the look of the motion characteristic of "Wild Boyz"? It's also Avid being used on "Laguana Beach" which has the strobbing I'm talking about : in a static shot a car goes by & jerks like it was stop motion animated by a third-rate Ray Harryhausen imitator.

[Barry Green]

There's no difference between the original or the (A) as regards pulldown. The (A) does have slow shutter speeds added to it. The original can go as slow as 1/24 in 24P mode, the DVX100A can go as slow as 1/6.

The playback on tape looks exactly the same as the playback through the video outs. However, both look smoother/less stroby than the playback on the camera's LCD.

As far as "strobing", the DVX renders motion exactly like film -- I've shot film and DVX side-by-side, the two cameras strapped to each other shooting the same scene identically, transferred the film to video and split-screened the results. The motion is identical, absolutely identical. Film strobes exactly the same way DVX 24P does.

[Cary Lee]

John:

Get Barry's book on the DVX and your strobing and effects will be solved. It's not the camera that's the problem. If you shoot 24p you will need to pan as slow as having an object cross your screen in no less than 7 seconds. Get the book. Also Get DV RACK it will help you out a lot.

[John Trent]

On the XL2 Watchdog forum in a recent thread by Jack Felis, Imran Zaidi writes, "24p DV that you see hooked up to a monitor will look more 'stroby' than when you finally output to NTSC".

Can I please get a straight answer here.

[Barry Green]

24P as viewed on the composite RCA (yellow plug) or S-video connections on an NTSC monitor will look exactly as "stroby" whether viewed as a live feed or from tape.

24P as viewed in the camera's LCD panel seems to show significantly more strobing than the same footage (or live feed) as viewed on an NTSC monitor.

[Ryan Koo]

Clarify this for me: as a former owner of a DVX100 and a current owner of a 100A, wasn't it the case that the original shot 24p in 1/60 shutter speed, whereas the A defaults to 1/48 (the equivalent of a 180 degree film shutter)? This would theoretically cut down on some chopiness from the 100 to the 100A. Is this correct?

[Barry Green]

No change. They both shoot 24p at a default of 1/50th.

The only change in shutter speed between those models was that on the 100A, they added the slow shutter feature, which lets you go to 1/12 or 1/6 in 24p, or down to 1/4 in 60i (among other slow shutter speeds).

[Bryan Harley]

So does this mean when on 'Wild Boyz' when they're swinging the camera all around and there's no strobing...that means they're shooting in 60i?

[Barry Green]

If you swing it fast enough, no strobing is visible (same as on film -- watch "24", you don't see a lot of strobing there). Strobing happens in certain "dead zones". When the camera's moving very slowly, no strobing is visible. When you move it really quickly, it all blurs together, thus showing no strobing. But there's a point in the middle, where you're moving the camera a little too quickly, or just a bit too slowly, to avoid strobing, where strobing is very visible.

If you want to see strobing in the cinema, go watch the opening shot of "Sahara". It's like a three-minute jib-arm pan around a room, and it strobes vigorously. That's an example of moving the camera into the "dead zone" where strobing happens, and it happens on film exactly the same way as it happens on a DVX/XL2/CineAlta/VariCam or any other 24P acquisition medium.

[Rush Hamden]

Barry is right on, I have also shot film, and the 24p on the DVX is identical. Speaking of MTV stuff, I just shot a behind the scenes video on the DVX for MTV's "MTV makes the video". The editor did some minor exposure changes and color matching, but the image off the DVX did not require much work. Most of the shots look exactly the way they did in the LCD while I was shooting. MTV's uber-editor blasted out a full 13 minute cut in 24 hrs., and spent his time syncing the footage to the music, rather than color timing. MTV accepted the first cut, they loved the footage and the editor's style, didn't ask for any technical changes. I did a LOT of snap zooms and swish pans, and there was no strobing. I avoid panning at certain speeds with any 24p device, and thus the illlicit deadzone. It happens sometimes, but if you just look out for it, you can avoid it. It was an 18 hr. handheld shoot, and I was assisted by my DVrigPro (http://www.dvtec.tv) and a borrowed Twister from 16x9 (http://www.16x9inc.com/cgibin/eDatCat/169store.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=AC-TW1) Those two devices made every shot count, and the show just aired this afternoon.