Is the DVX100A obsolete already? at DVinfo.net

Paul Colt · September 30th, 2004, 04:30 AM

With the release of the new Canon XL-2 with 16:9, 24P, and removable lenses And Now the Newest release of the Sony HDR-FX1 future Pro version with HD format, 16:9, 24P, XLR inputs , a B & W LCD, and possible DVCAM format ; does this sink the first 24P camera, the DVX? I think especially with Sony's new release if your serious about the future you have to consider it since you will have access to such a wide array of capability and formats to do many different projects.
What do the masters think?

Peter Jefferson · September 30th, 2004, 05:56 AM

pffffft far from it mate..

i dont mean to sound biased but for the price compared to these other new units its long from dead..

on top of that, HD doesnt have a delivery method now, unless u encode to MPG4, and play back on an MPG4 dvd player (BraVo) then theres blue ray which weve heard so much about but noone seems to know exactly what it can really do and how it will benefit producers... only now are there editing solutions being made available, but the fact remains, delivery is stil in SD.
On top of that ,its actually not "real" HD, as its upsampled footage which is interpolated to fit into a HD "standard"

as for widescreen, the DVX has an adapter, or u can use the in-cam widescreen with comparable loss in resolution.

I think the XL2 will be the winner out of the two, and the Sony will sell for the 16:9 alone.. but price and cost of changing your editing solution still doesnt justify it when u consider that you can upsample your footge in post to HD anyway...

Hell i do it now with my DVX100 with Vegas 5.. i then run mpg2 streams from a TViX Multimedia Box running a 200gb HDD straight into a Visio Plasma screen.. I do this to demo the HD performance of the Visio and it works beautifully

Paul Colt · September 30th, 2004, 06:36 AM

Yes but the Sony HDR-FX1 Pro version will have DVCam format so you can run three hours of full DV on one tape plus it will have everything the DVX100A has plus native 16:9, HD formats, and the nice pro B&W LCD viewfinder and so on. I'm not disagreeing with your point I'm just saying for a camera with a Real Future The New Sony will be the one to go with. I'm still up in the air because I'm a Canon guy and have three of their cams so the XL-2 is still in contention. But considering the Base Prosumer Sony HDR-FX1 is almost cheaper then the DVX100A I don't think a lot of people will be sticking with DVX100A in the future. Even though yes it was a groundbreaking camera and still has a great lense and technology.

Joe Kras · September 30th, 2004, 07:19 AM

"Yes but the Sony HDR-FX1 Pro version will have DVCam format so you can run three hours of full DV on one tape."

Only if they put a full size tape deck on the unit, which I highly doubt. If they stay with the same (mini-DV) size tape, it will be the usual 40 minutes that you get with a PD-170.

Imran Zaidi · September 30th, 2004, 07:33 AM

Paul, it sounds like your mind was pretty much made up before you posted. Look, the fact is, these are all different cameras in different price ranges that do different things. Different people are looking for different things - so while the DVX might be sunk for you based on your desires, it may not be sunk for someone else. I personally don't think it's sunk. If a pro 3CCD 24p HD camera magically comes out at the same price as the DVX, you can be sure that Panasonic will drop its price. So even then it will have life.

There's really no point arguing better/worse over a camera that doesn't exist yet.

Jeff Patnaude · September 30th, 2004, 07:35 AM

Why is everyone saying that there's no edit solution for this format? I thought That FCP 4.0 and up would edit MPEG2 video. Even if you use the Lumier software to ingest the MPEG2, its not that expensive- even for me.

I agree that its a problem tht there seems to be no playback solution other than the camera itself. Time wil solve this.

I know we have to jump in sometime, but I'm going to keep testing the waters until its right for me. Its getting verrrry interesting.

Jeff P.

Paul Colt · September 30th, 2004, 08:11 AM

All good points. I am still mulling it all over, plus yeah I was on the Sony forum and started getting all swept up in the MOMENT. I think it is definatly in our future , just like when 24p first came out only a few NLE's would edit it so its only a matter of time, and unfortunatley a lot of MONEY. Today's new fangled digital wonder camera is next years HI-8 analog camera!

Pete Balistrieri · September 30th, 2004, 10:21 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Colt : And Now the Newest release of the Sony HDR-FX1 future Pro version with HD format, 16:9, 24P, XLR inputs , a B & W LCD, . -->>>

I may be all wet here, but to my limited knowledge there will not be 24p in the pro version of the FX-1. Only a Cinema setting. Not the same format as DVX and XL2. I think it's reaching to say that one camera will be obsolete by another camera that does not even offer the main feature that the initial camera is known for.

People will choose which format they prefer, but the DVX will not be obsolete until there is no SD video anymore.

Long way off.

Paul Colt · September 30th, 2004, 11:39 PM

From what I read on a few sites 24p will be included on the FX-1 Pro version but not on the Prosumer model. Of course the Ag-DVX100A will always be a good choice for general SD video projects. However someone that is looking to more up to a new 1/3 3-CCD Pro camera would have to look at a camera that offers more then just 24P and a decent lense like the DVX-100A . Both the New Canon and Sony models offer videographers more bang for thier bucks and it'll only get better in the future. Im sure the experts at Panasonic will be coming out with something in the new year to counter these latest models.

Dave Croft · October 1st, 2004, 07:56 AM

I have the Pana DVC30 at the moment, and while it is a great cam, I think I will pick up a second hand (or maybe price reduced) DVX100a in about a year.

It seems like a great camera and true prog is always good. The XL2 is just too expensive for me, and so will the pro Sony probably. There will will many like me who will pick up a DVX over the next couple of years - even if new models come out. People still use XL1/XL1s and GL2 etc, and they are getting on a bit now.

A camera will only become obselete when the format it uses ceases to be an available/cheap/worthwhile option etc. I think SD will still be used for a while yet. Here in the UK, most people haven't even heard of HD ;)

I still shoot Super 8mm as well as DV, which many thought would be obselete years ago (I'll probably not bother as soon as I get hold of a DVX though :)

Peter Jefferson · October 1st, 2004, 08:39 AM

"Why is everyone saying that there's no edit solution for this format? I thought That FCP 4.0 and up would edit MPEG2 video. Even if you use the Lumier software to ingest the MPEG2, its not that expensive- even for me. "

there are MANY edit solutions, from Matrox Oxio running Prem Pro, to Canopus Edius with their new board, Vegas was one of the first and FCP4 was teh apple equivalent.. editing is NOT the problem.. DELIVERY is.. two very different things..

as for the cameras, i trully doubt the SOny HD will have TRUE progressive scan CCD's as HD ISNT even a progressive format.. the closest thing to it is 30i.. not even that.. the CCDs alone are what blow the prices out...

dont get me worng these new formats are all fine and good, but in reality, ie today... theres really no point in stressing about it..

bang for the buck.. yes well what are u trying to bang out with this new hammer of yours??

And like i said, its a hybrid HD format upsampled from a lower resolution, so i can easily emulate that in many NLE's TODAY.. not november or december when the new FX1 comes out..

THATS my point...

Cieonatechori Michelieve · October 1st, 2004, 09:15 AM

I'm no expert in the camera stuff and just learning the things while I research for the camera(and I've finally decided to go for FX1). I think 24p missing on this FX1 is not a big deal for me - suppose I end up shooting something that turns out to be great, how hard is it going to be to turn it to 24p for film!!! From what I know it's not difficult to transfer 60i to film. And shooting something with 24p is not going to make it great - it's the script, lighting, they way it is shot that's going to make it interesting.

When I started to do study for camera purchase, I never thought I would see the same kind of discussions that go into music software(where some people think that some magical software which is better than other is going to let them do great music).

It's not about 24 frames, it's about 1 good idea. I dont mean to offend 24p believers - just writing something from my own little understanding I have about it.

Peter Jefferson · October 1st, 2004, 09:50 AM

well im in pal land so i dont use 24p ;)

but i agree with ur comments on the mentality behind what we make..

thing is progressive is a major element within film which give the FEEL of watchin a movie...

u can also emulate this in post... :)

Ryan Gohlinghorst · October 3rd, 2004, 01:45 PM

As long as you are getting really good quality images and clean sound... no camera is obsolete.

Aaron Koolen · October 3rd, 2004, 02:17 PM

Well I have yet to see anyone post any decent footage with significatnt movement in it. When they do, I'll be able to judge then. Until that point, unless someone really needs interchangeable lenses the DVX seems to still be the best bet. While the Xl2 produces really nice stuff from what I've seen, it lacks in a lot of features.....IMO.

Aaron

September 30th, 2004, 04:30 AM	#1
Paul Colt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 35	Is the DVX100A obsolete already? With the release of the new Canon XL-2 with 16:9, 24P, and removable lenses And Now the Newest release of the Sony HDR-FX1 future Pro version with HD format, 16:9, 24P, XLR inputs , a B & W LCD, and possible DVCAM format ; does this sink the first 24P camera, the DVX? I think especially with Sony's new release if your serious about the future you have to consider it since you will have access to such a wide array of capability and formats to do many different projects. What do the masters think? __________________ Paul Anthony Videography Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

September 30th, 2004, 06:36 AM	#3
Paul Colt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 35	Good points but Yes but the Sony HDR-FX1 Pro version will have DVCam format so you can run three hours of full DV on one tape plus it will have everything the DVX100A has plus native 16:9, HD formats, and the nice pro B&W LCD viewfinder and so on. I'm not disagreeing with your point I'm just saying for a camera with a Real Future The New Sony will be the one to go with. I'm still up in the air because I'm a Canon guy and have three of their cams so the XL-2 is still in contention. But considering the Base Prosumer Sony HDR-FX1 is almost cheaper then the DVX100A I don't think a lot of people will be sticking with DVX100A in the future. Even though yes it was a groundbreaking camera and still has a great lense and technology. __________________ Paul Anthony Videography Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

September 30th, 2004, 08:11 AM	#7
Paul Colt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 35	Not made mind up.........yet All good points. I am still mulling it all over, plus yeah I was on the Sony forum and started getting all swept up in the MOMENT. I think it is definatly in our future , just like when 24p first came out only a few NLE's would edit it so its only a matter of time, and unfortunatley a lot of MONEY. Today's new fangled digital wonder camera is next years HI-8 analog camera! __________________ Paul Anthony Videography Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

September 30th, 2004, 10:21 AM	#8
Pete Balistrieri Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 26	Re: Is the DVX100A obsolete already? <<<-- Originally posted by Paul Colt : And Now the Newest release of the Sony HDR-FX1 future Pro version with HD format, 16:9, 24P, XLR inputs , a B & W LCD, . -->>> I may be all wet here, but to my limited knowledge there will not be 24p in the pro version of the FX-1. Only a Cinema setting. Not the same format as DVX and XL2. I think it's reaching to say that one camera will be obsolete by another camera that does not even offer the main feature that the initial camera is known for. People will choose which format they prefer, but the DVX will not be obsolete until there is no SD video anymore. Long way off.

September 30th, 2004, 11:39 PM	#9
Paul Colt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 35	From what I read on a few sites 24p will be included on the FX-1 Pro version but not on the Prosumer model. Of course the Ag-DVX100A will always be a good choice for general SD video projects. However someone that is looking to more up to a new 1/3 3-CCD Pro camera would have to look at a camera that offers more then just 24P and a decent lense like the DVX-100A . Both the New Canon and Sony models offer videographers more bang for thier bucks and it'll only get better in the future. Im sure the experts at Panasonic will be coming out with something in the new year to counter these latest models. __________________ Paul Anthony Videography Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

September 30th, 2004, 05:56 AM	#2
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	pffffft far from it mate.. i dont mean to sound biased but for the price compared to these other new units its long from dead.. on top of that, HD doesnt have a delivery method now, unless u encode to MPG4, and play back on an MPG4 dvd player (BraVo) then theres blue ray which weve heard so much about but noone seems to know exactly what it can really do and how it will benefit producers... only now are there editing solutions being made available, but the fact remains, delivery is stil in SD. On top of that ,its actually not "real" HD, as its upsampled footage which is interpolated to fit into a HD "standard" as for widescreen, the DVX has an adapter, or u can use the in-cam widescreen with comparable loss in resolution. I think the XL2 will be the winner out of the two, and the Sony will sell for the 16:9 alone.. but price and cost of changing your editing solution still doesnt justify it when u consider that you can upsample your footge in post to HD anyway... Hell i do it now with my DVX100 with Vegas 5.. i then run mpg2 streams from a TViX Multimedia Box running a 200gb HDD straight into a Visio Plasma screen.. I do this to demo the HD performance of the Visio and it works beautifully

September 30th, 2004, 07:19 AM	#4
Joe Kras Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 54	"Yes but the Sony HDR-FX1 Pro version will have DVCam format so you can run three hours of full DV on one tape." Only if they put a full size tape deck on the unit, which I highly doubt. If they stay with the same (mini-DV) size tape, it will be the usual 40 minutes that you get with a PD-170.

September 30th, 2004, 07:33 AM	#5
Imran Zaidi Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,315	Paul, it sounds like your mind was pretty much made up before you posted. Look, the fact is, these are all different cameras in different price ranges that do different things. Different people are looking for different things - so while the DVX might be sunk for you based on your desires, it may not be sunk for someone else. I personally don't think it's sunk. If a pro 3CCD 24p HD camera magically comes out at the same price as the DVX, you can be sure that Panasonic will drop its price. So even then it will have life. There's really no point arguing better/worse over a camera that doesn't exist yet.

September 30th, 2004, 07:35 AM	#6
Jeff Patnaude Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Duluth, Georgia Posts: 248	Why is everyone saying that there's no edit solution for this format? I thought That FCP 4.0 and up would edit MPEG2 video. Even if you use the Lumier software to ingest the MPEG2, its not that expensive- even for me. I agree that its a problem tht there seems to be no playback solution other than the camera itself. Time wil solve this. I know we have to jump in sometime, but I'm going to keep testing the waters until its right for me. Its getting verrrry interesting. Jeff P.

October 1st, 2004, 07:56 AM	#10
Dave Croft Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorks UK Posts: 89	I have the Pana DVC30 at the moment, and while it is a great cam, I think I will pick up a second hand (or maybe price reduced) DVX100a in about a year. It seems like a great camera and true prog is always good. The XL2 is just too expensive for me, and so will the pro Sony probably. There will will many like me who will pick up a DVX over the next couple of years - even if new models come out. People still use XL1/XL1s and GL2 etc, and they are getting on a bit now. A camera will only become obselete when the format it uses ceases to be an available/cheap/worthwhile option etc. I think SD will still be used for a while yet. Here in the UK, most people haven't even heard of HD ;) I still shoot Super 8mm as well as DV, which many thought would be obselete years ago (I'll probably not bother as soon as I get hold of a DVX though :) __________________ Dave Croft Experimental filmmaker, Nature video, Documentary work and more. Panasonic DVC30, XLR adapter, Shotgun Mic, Canon WD43 Wide angle, PC using Premeire + AE.

October 1st, 2004, 08:39 AM	#11
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	"Why is everyone saying that there's no edit solution for this format? I thought That FCP 4.0 and up would edit MPEG2 video. Even if you use the Lumier software to ingest the MPEG2, its not that expensive- even for me. " there are MANY edit solutions, from Matrox Oxio running Prem Pro, to Canopus Edius with their new board, Vegas was one of the first and FCP4 was teh apple equivalent.. editing is NOT the problem.. DELIVERY is.. two very different things.. as for the cameras, i trully doubt the SOny HD will have TRUE progressive scan CCD's as HD ISNT even a progressive format.. the closest thing to it is 30i.. not even that.. the CCDs alone are what blow the prices out... dont get me worng these new formats are all fine and good, but in reality, ie today... theres really no point in stressing about it.. bang for the buck.. yes well what are u trying to bang out with this new hammer of yours?? And like i said, its a hybrid HD format upsampled from a lower resolution, so i can easily emulate that in many NLE's TODAY.. not november or december when the new FX1 comes out.. THATS my point...

October 1st, 2004, 09:15 AM	#12
Cieonatechori Michelieve Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Washington DC Posts: 25	I'm no expert in the camera stuff and just learning the things while I research for the camera(and I've finally decided to go for FX1). I think 24p missing on this FX1 is not a big deal for me - suppose I end up shooting something that turns out to be great, how hard is it going to be to turn it to 24p for film!!! From what I know it's not difficult to transfer 60i to film. And shooting something with 24p is not going to make it great - it's the script, lighting, they way it is shot that's going to make it interesting. When I started to do study for camera purchase, I never thought I would see the same kind of discussions that go into music software(where some people think that some magical software which is better than other is going to let them do great music). It's not about 24 frames, it's about 1 good idea. I dont mean to offend 24p believers - just writing something from my own little understanding I have about it.

October 1st, 2004, 09:50 AM	#13
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	well im in pal land so i dont use 24p ;) but i agree with ur comments on the mentality behind what we make.. thing is progressive is a major element within film which give the FEEL of watchin a movie... u can also emulate this in post... :)

October 3rd, 2004, 01:45 PM	#14
Ryan Gohlinghorst Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Mankato, Minnesota Posts: 104	As long as you are getting really good quality images and clean sound... no camera is obsolete. __________________ http://www.horsefilms.com "I like Mankato just a little bit better than any other town in the world." -Sinclair Lewis

October 3rd, 2004, 02:17 PM	#15
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Well I have yet to see anyone post any decent footage with significatnt movement in it. When they do, I'll be able to judge then. Until that point, unless someone really needs interchangeable lenses the DVX seems to still be the best bet. While the Xl2 produces really nice stuff from what I've seen, it lacks in a lot of features.....IMO. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media