Recording Sound Direct to 100a

[Ian Poirier]

I'm planning to shoot a part of feature length script of mine as a short in august. (to hopefully drum up some interest in the whole package). To avoid the cost of a DAT recorder and learning to use it correctly by that time, I want the coming months to work with the actors and lighting for the 100a that I should have in two weeks. I'm thinking of getting 2 Seinnheiser ME65's to go direct into the 100a which will cover all the conversation aspects of the scenes (I believe). I know in looking at websites for other DV films, like Charlotte Sometimes for instance, people at times recorded sound directly to DV tape so I'm assuming quality isn't an issue and timing would be right on (aside from a miniscule delay that I believe I read on another post here). Please correct me if I'm missing anything.

Secondly, the piece has no music but ambient sounds of the city play an important role in the mood. For this can't I get a cheaper digital recorder since timecode isn't important? Any suggestions on such a recorder would be great.

Thanks yall.

[John Britt]

I can't speak on mics, but recording straight to the DVX will be fine for most situations (Jay Rose wrote in DV magazine that the DVX had some of the best miniDV prosumer audio around -- to paraphrase...) Would a separate recorder w/ a mixer and dedicated soundman be better/more "professional"? Probably, but you don't have the resources. The audio from the DVX will be perfectly fine for your purposes.

You can also record the ambient city sounds you want with the DVX as well. Don't see any reason to shell out for a "cheap digital recorder" when you can just spend $5.00 on a miniDV tape and get 63 minutes of good ambient audio from your DVX.

[Ian Poirier]

That's a good point, my friend.
Thanks for the input. And, yeah, I certainly don't have the resources to go the "pro" route for this project. I'm playing DP, director and sound guy on this one.

[John Britt]

I shoot with the DVC80, which is the same audio-wise as the DVX100, and I record almost all audio through it. Until recently, I was even recording all my voice-overs into it. I think the audio is great on this cam. You can see/hear some examples of my commercials w/ audio from either lavaliere or handheld condenser mic straight into the DVC80 at my website: www.karatemedia.com/video (it ain't great stuff visually, but it'll give you an idea on the sound...btw the QT files are better than the realplayer ones)

[Matt Gettemeier]

Ian, I'm going to email you a little clip from a thunderstorm we had here recently. I got out my dvx 'cause I wanted to take advantage of the weather for sound-effects.

The audio clip I'm sending isn't the best clean thunder, but I'd noticed through my 'phones that the rain was slightly "pinging" off my truck. So you'll hear me walking out to the truck and starting/moving it back about 40 feet. Just as I shut off the engine another lightning strike hit and this'll give you a pretty good idea of your cams capabilities for use as a digital sound recorder. I'm curious what you'll think... and I mean besides the fact that my truck is a piece of sh*t.

If you have good computer speakers that will be fine, monitors are better, and headphones should give you the most detail...

[Ian Poirier]

Thanks Matt, the sound is quite impressive. I surely have no worries about recording sound direct now. What kind of mic did you record that through?

Oh, and your truck doesn't sound that bad.

[Matt Gettemeier]

That was an nt1000... there are a few places closing them out right now (check Guitar Center) for $199... I can't say enough good things about the Rode mics. Just realize that they are special use and won't be good for breezy areas or where you want selective recording... they'll hear everything from your main speaker's voice all the way to a gopher fart 50 yards away. That's why I mainly use 'em for either studio ADR or else location sound where you want to capture every detail of an area.

If you don't get an nt1000... an nt1a will work just as good.

I can send you some more sound samples if you like... or else you can look up some of Beaser's files... under that you'll see some stuff from me and anything that has my name on it is a direct to dvx recording only. I don't have any other equipment.

If you get an Oktava mk012 you won't be dissappointed either. They're cheap and they sound great... much better then other stand-by mics some people are using.

[Ian Poirier]

Thanks for info again, Matt.

Feel free to send me samples that are indicative of different mics and/or situations with the dvx. I'm not overly familiar with mics at all so this is my biggest sticking point as to what I want to purchase. I'm still leaning towards a Sennheiser ME66 for dialouge and now possibly an nt1000 for city sounds and outdoor ambient. This thread is now kind of heading towards the sound category. I think I might post a couple specific mic questions there so this one doesn't get relocated.

John, I haven't checked out your site yet but I will. Thanks.

[Aaron Koolen]

Ian, you want to take into consideration the sensitivity of the mics also. If they are low you will have to either get the mic closer (There will obviously be a limit to how close you can get it) or up the preamps on the DVX. In the latter case, it would almost certainly be better to use an external preamp.

Mics like the ME66 are pretty sensitive so you might be able to get away with a good setting on the DVX and mic close. Others you might not have that luxury so preamp is the way to go. Also, if you're on a budget (and can't buy great gear) and are open to the idea, rent. You could rent a good preamp for next to nothing and get very good perormance from it.

Aaron

[Ian Poirier]

Aaron, who makes good preamps and what do I look for in one?

On a side note, I notice your in NZ. One of my best friends has been backpacking through NZ for the last seven weeks. She says its truly a gorgeous country. I'd like to see it some day.

[Aaron Koolen]

Ian, that's a MASSIVE new subject on it's own! There is such a selection of preamps out there it's not funny and it all comes down to price per/unit quality ;) Most of the ones I've been looking at haven't just been mic preamps, but mixers as well. And I have little, if any experience with any of them.

Devices like the SoundDevices MixPre and 302 (Bryan Beasleigh owns both of those I think) are considered top notch. But the MixPre(2 channel) is around US$600 or so, and the 302 (3 channel) about US$1100. Then there are ones like the DVPromix3 which is a 3 channel mixer - not as good as the SD gear but quite a bit cheaper at US$500 for 3 channels. Then there are single source preamps like the Denecke AD-20 which some people say are pretty good too.

If you're going for a mixer style one they offer a lot of varying features that you may or may not need. Some have slate microphones for slating takes, tone generators for levelling. Some allow you to actually mix the inputs as opposed to having just input 1 go to output 1 etc. Some allow varying levels in (Mic or Line) while some just allow Mic level in. I'm only just researching preamps myself but a few things that I want are.

- Good multistage levelling metres. Some just show peaks and clips which I don't like. I want ones that can tell me the signal level.

- Enough gain for your needs. For instance, if you're going from mic level of about -50dBV and you want to be able to amp up to pro line level of +4dBu then you're looking at about 52dB of gain.

- Line and Mic level inputs - some just do Mic only.

- 48V Phantom power to run condenser mics.

- Tone generator (Although a separate one would do), for easily calibrating the cam.

For me adjustable meter ranges would be nice seeing as my XM2 only has mic level in so I'll probably be amping 12dB or so with my ME66 - at that level the meters would probably hardly flicker. Of course I can amp up a lot and use an attenuator at the output end.

I'll stop here cause I do not have enough experience with them to give you first hand knowledge. I'm sure someone else here does. Maybe you should make another thread for this subject.

Cheers
Aaron

[Ian Poirier]

How about Schoeps mics? Would I need a preamp for say, an MK41, or can i go straight to the DVX100a?

[Aaron Koolen]

Assuming I'm looking at the right specs the MKH41 has a sensitivity of about 13mV/Pa (~-36dBu) Then ME 66 on the other hand is 35mV/Pa (~-27dBu) which is a reasonable difference.

I don't know about about your camera and the gear to say categorically if you'd need a preamp or not, but you might be fine just pumping up the DVX's preamps as the camera seems to be pretty good as far as signal/noise goes from what I've read but it all depends on what quality you want. The ME66 can get a good signal (-12dBFS average) on an XM2, with volume knobs about halfway if it's mic'ed close and properly. I have this setup, but that said I'd still like a good preamp cause sometimes I can't boom it ideally and then a good preamp would enable me to crank it up without adding as much noise as I would through the normal volume controls of the camera.

I'd run a test if I were you. Do you have that Mic? If so, try and get some tests of silence and then see where the noise level lies.

Aaron

[Ian Poirier]

I don't have that mic. They cost $1200+ US. I won't even have my camera till next week so maybe I'll try to rent the mics and see how they work. Apparently the MK41 is an amazing mic for what folks are saying.