Shooting Stage Play - Lighting Conditions, Frame Rates, Etc.? at DVinfo.net

Peter Moore · March 11th, 2004, 02:45 PM

So I would be grateful for any thoughts you guys might have on this topic:

I will be using AG-DVX100A cameras in 24P adv. mode to shoot a stage play. What that means for lighting purposes is that sometimes there will be bright stage lights, sometimes just spotlights, sometimes fades to black, etc.

I'm looking for advice on the best settings to use. 24p Adv. is a must. I realize this means no gain at all (right?). My thought was to set the shutter constant, and then put the camera in auto-iris mode and let it do the rest. Now if I do that, what shutter speed would you use? My first thought is that 24 fps might be too blurry. Then again, there aren't going to be fast pans, and the actors are not going to be moving very fast on stage. Plus, the only other option as I understand it from reading the manual is 50 fps (OFF), and with no gain it seems to me that is going to be risky.

Any thoughts on how the auto-iris will perform, what framerate would be good, and how the camera will handle dynamic lighting conditions?

Thanks a lot.

PS _ I'm renting so I can't try them out in these conditions ahead of time, I'm afraid. We have two opportunities (2 nights) to get it right, and I want two good nights of footage to go back and forth with, so we've got to get it right the first time. :)

James Emory · March 11th, 2004, 03:15 PM

I don't know much about the DVX 100 but 24P should be ok if you don't do quick pans. I would leave the auto iris on. It shouldn't dip unless there are extreme changes in intensity during a scene. You may want to adjust it if/when spot lights are used and are too intense. I have done this with the XL-1 several times and I got some great results and sometimes not so great results with non-photographic hotter lighting. Make sure your audio is clean or it will defeat great photography. You can see demos of many various lighting conditions shooting stage plays via the link below. They are at a high data rate so the colors are represented correctly.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=17557

Ken Tanaka · March 11th, 2004, 03:20 PM

Hello Peter,
Shooting plays is actually somewhat of a unique challenge. So you're in for a treat.

You questions are just a bit puzzling and suggest that you may need just a bit or orientation.

You indicated that you plan to shoot in "24p Adv" mode, and that it is a "must". But you ask what "frame rate" you should use. Well, if you're shooting in 24p, you'll be using 24 frames per second as your frame rate. Gee, that was an easy question to answer! <g>

In general, you're not going to want to "auto" anything. You'll want to set your iris for a good average exposure. If you have to cover the whole depth of a stage from, say, just in front of the stage you'll probably want to keep your iris around 4.8 or 5.6 to maintain a deep depth of field. Blocking for stage plays is very different that for dramatic film and ignores such technical matters.

Out of curiosity, why is 24P Advanced mode a "must"? Where is this footage going?

Wayne Orr · March 11th, 2004, 07:51 PM

Peter, you should do a search here for more suggestions, as this is a pretty common question. Also you can find a current discussion of this question here: http://tinyurl.com/2e96j

Wayne Orr, SOC

Peter Moore · March 11th, 2004, 11:20 PM

Ken,
Merely a mis-speak on my part. I meant to say 1/24th of a second _shutter_speed_. I have a bad tendency to mix shutter speed and frame rate when I talk, even though I know the difference. :)

Why is it a must? Personal choice. I want this to look like film and produce a progressive scan DVD at the end of the day. In addition to post color correction, gamma, etc., 24p will be a substantial factor in the film look.

So I'm not comfortable asking my three camera operators to keep iris manual, I don't think. I myself wouldn't be comfortable doing that if I were the camera operator, and I'm not, so I'm even less comfortable asking someone else to. :)

So the question remains, assume auto-iris for the moment: 1/24th shutter, 1/50 shutter, or something else entirely?

FYI, last year I shot a similar play (same stage, lights, etc.) with Sony PD-150s entirely in automatic spotlight mode with fantastic results. I know that Sony Spotlight mode (at least as far as I can tell) merely means 0 db gain and auto everything else. I figure auto-iris and shutter-priority is basically going to replicate that. I theoretically could go back to the PD-150s but I really want the 24p advanced mode. I want it to look like a PBS film of a stage play. Last year's did to a large extent and I think the DVX100A will even more. Besides 24p it has a much better 16x9 than PD150. At least that's my impression. If you think I'm wrong please speak up. :)

Also don't worry about audio. Each microphone into the mixer is going out through the "thru" input straight to my Roland VS-880EX digital recorder in 6 channels. And the music is separately recorded. The result will be mixed in 5.1 (chorus is on Sennheiser shotgun mic's, soloists and speakers all on UHF wireless lav's). So we've got audio down. :) Actually audio is my specialty (even more than cameras and certainly more than lights).

Ken Tanaka · March 11th, 2004, 11:38 PM

Your normal shutter speed will be 1/48 shooting 24P. I asked about your "24P Advanced" specification, in particular, because I wondered why you aren't choosing the camera's straight 24P mode. Since you're not going to film you may want to consider this mode for its simpler pull-down.

I shot two excerpts of plays for broadcast recently. Broadcast being the venue I shot in 60i. I had the advantage of being able to light the whole stage myself and the mini-performances were staged strictly for the camera before a regular performance. So there was no audience. I chose to set the iris, and keep it static, to aid in managing focus for variations in upstage/downstage action.

Good luck with your shoot, Peter!

Peter Moore · March 12th, 2004, 07:23 AM

1/48, ah. I see. Strange because I thought reading the manual (which is not very good :( ) that 1/24 and 1/50 (and faster) were the only shutter speeds available.

As for the 24p adv v. 24p, I am using Vegas so it supports the adv. and thought the 24pA would result in a better picture. If not, and if it gives me more flexible shutter options, I can certainly use 24p normal.

Anthony Meluso · March 30th, 2004, 02:51 PM

If shooting in 24P the normal default shutter speed should be 1/48. If that's not an option on the camera then panasonic people do not understand what 24 frames per second means in response to shutter speed.

The shutter speed should always be double the frame rate for proper shooting. Ex. 24P = 1/24 shutter, 30P = 1/60 shutter, the same applies to shooting 60i = 1/60 shutter.

Any slower or faster shutter speeds will create unproper shooting conditions. However, that can prove to be your advantage if you are trying to achieve a certain style. Ex. The strobe effect is created when shooting with faster shutter speeds - 24P = 1/96 shutter. This was done in Saving Private Ryan

Good Luck

James Emory · March 30th, 2004, 08:32 PM

I thought that the Saving Private Ryan effect was done by changing the pitch of the shutter a few degrees.

Marco Leavitt · March 30th, 2004, 09:00 PM

I've shot a few plays, and as far exposure goes, you need to find out what the lighting is like. For the extreme DIY productions I shot, the lighting was very uneven. There's no way I could have shot it manual with my camera, which, like most of these cams, has tiny, fiddly controls that are pretty useless for adjusting on the fly. Ken's advice to find the middle exposure is solid advice if it's a professional looking production, but don't wait to find out the night of the show. Find out who's doing the lights and see if you can have any input. I've found artists who are putting on their own shows always want it to be really dark. They think it's moody or something. Very aggravating. An even bigger problem is sound, but that's a different post.

Yang Wen · March 31st, 2004, 12:34 AM

i've shot plenty of staged shows with the DVX and it works very well. Be careful if you know the show will be utilizing many different lighting designs(many different hues), it will throw off your white balance and your flesh tones will look unatural under extreme conditions with very strong colored lights.

http://www.umich.edu/~ywenz/theatre

Jaser Stockert · March 31st, 2004, 08:45 AM

yang, i see your play had different lighting conditions...how did you deal w/ white balancing and exposure under these extreme changing conditions? thanks...

Yang Wen · March 31st, 2004, 04:20 PM

I find that you definitely need to save different WB settings for parts of the performance when a single strong hue is lighting the stage. Using the same WB settings for vastly different lighting conditions will guarantee a bad image in the end. Go to the dress rehersals to fig out the lighting sequence for your performance.

March 11th, 2004, 02:45 PM	#1
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Shooting Stage Play - Lighting Conditions, Frame Rates, Etc.? So I would be grateful for any thoughts you guys might have on this topic: I will be using AG-DVX100A cameras in 24P adv. mode to shoot a stage play. What that means for lighting purposes is that sometimes there will be bright stage lights, sometimes just spotlights, sometimes fades to black, etc. I'm looking for advice on the best settings to use. 24p Adv. is a must. I realize this means no gain at all (right?). My thought was to set the shutter constant, and then put the camera in auto-iris mode and let it do the rest. Now if I do that, what shutter speed would you use? My first thought is that 24 fps might be too blurry. Then again, there aren't going to be fast pans, and the actors are not going to be moving very fast on stage. Plus, the only other option as I understand it from reading the manual is 50 fps (OFF), and with no gain it seems to me that is going to be risky. Any thoughts on how the auto-iris will perform, what framerate would be good, and how the camera will handle dynamic lighting conditions? Thanks a lot. PS _ I'm renting so I can't try them out in these conditions ahead of time, I'm afraid. We have two opportunities (2 nights) to get it right, and I want two good nights of footage to go back and forth with, so we've got to get it right the first time. :)

March 11th, 2004, 03:15 PM	#2
James Emory Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,892	Shooting a stage play I don't know much about the DVX 100 but 24P should be ok if you don't do quick pans. I would leave the auto iris on. It shouldn't dip unless there are extreme changes in intensity during a scene. You may want to adjust it if/when spot lights are used and are too intense. I have done this with the XL-1 several times and I got some great results and sometimes not so great results with non-photographic hotter lighting. Make sure your audio is clean or it will defeat great photography. You can see demos of many various lighting conditions shooting stage plays via the link below. They are at a high data rate so the colors are represented correctly. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=17557

March 11th, 2004, 03:20 PM	#3
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Hello Peter, Shooting plays is actually somewhat of a unique challenge. So you're in for a treat. You questions are just a bit puzzling and suggest that you may need just a bit or orientation. You indicated that you plan to shoot in "24p Adv" mode, and that it is a "must". But you ask what "frame rate" you should use. Well, if you're shooting in 24p, you'll be using 24 frames per second as your frame rate. Gee, that was an easy question to answer! <g> In general, you're not going to want to "auto" anything. You'll want to set your iris for a good average exposure. If you have to cover the whole depth of a stage from, say, just in front of the stage you'll probably want to keep your iris around 4.8 or 5.6 to maintain a deep depth of field. Blocking for stage plays is very different that for dramatic film and ignores such technical matters. Out of curiosity, why is 24P Advanced mode a "must"? Where is this footage going? __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

March 11th, 2004, 11:38 PM	#6
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Your normal shutter speed will be 1/48 shooting 24P. I asked about your "24P Advanced" specification, in particular, because I wondered why you aren't choosing the camera's straight 24P mode. Since you're not going to film you may want to consider this mode for its simpler pull-down. I shot two excerpts of plays for broadcast recently. Broadcast being the venue I shot in 60i. I had the advantage of being able to light the whole stage myself and the mini-performances were staged strictly for the camera before a regular performance. So there was no audience. I chose to set the iris, and keep it static, to aid in managing focus for variations in upstage/downstage action. Good luck with your shoot, Peter! __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

March 30th, 2004, 08:32 PM	#9
James Emory Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,892	Shutter Pitch I thought that the Saving Private Ryan effect was done by changing the pitch of the shutter a few degrees.

March 11th, 2004, 07:51 PM	#4
Wayne Orr Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Northridge Ca Posts: 734	Peter, you should do a search here for more suggestions, as this is a pretty common question. Also you can find a current discussion of this question here: http://tinyurl.com/2e96j Wayne Orr, SOC

March 11th, 2004, 11:20 PM	#5
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Ken, Merely a mis-speak on my part. I meant to say 1/24th of a second _shutter_speed_. I have a bad tendency to mix shutter speed and frame rate when I talk, even though I know the difference. :) Why is it a must? Personal choice. I want this to look like film and produce a progressive scan DVD at the end of the day. In addition to post color correction, gamma, etc., 24p will be a substantial factor in the film look. So I'm not comfortable asking my three camera operators to keep iris manual, I don't think. I myself wouldn't be comfortable doing that if I were the camera operator, and I'm not, so I'm even less comfortable asking someone else to. :) So the question remains, assume auto-iris for the moment: 1/24th shutter, 1/50 shutter, or something else entirely? FYI, last year I shot a similar play (same stage, lights, etc.) with Sony PD-150s entirely in automatic spotlight mode with fantastic results. I know that Sony Spotlight mode (at least as far as I can tell) merely means 0 db gain and auto everything else. I figure auto-iris and shutter-priority is basically going to replicate that. I theoretically could go back to the PD-150s but I really want the 24p advanced mode. I want it to look like a PBS film of a stage play. Last year's did to a large extent and I think the DVX100A will even more. Besides 24p it has a much better 16x9 than PD150. At least that's my impression. If you think I'm wrong please speak up. :) Also don't worry about audio. Each microphone into the mixer is going out through the "thru" input straight to my Roland VS-880EX digital recorder in 6 channels. And the music is separately recorded. The result will be mixed in 5.1 (chorus is on Sennheiser shotgun mic's, soloists and speakers all on UHF wireless lav's). So we've got audio down. :) Actually audio is my specialty (even more than cameras and certainly more than lights).

March 12th, 2004, 07:23 AM	#7
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	1/48, ah. I see. Strange because I thought reading the manual (which is not very good :( ) that 1/24 and 1/50 (and faster) were the only shutter speeds available. As for the 24p adv v. 24p, I am using Vegas so it supports the adv. and thought the 24pA would result in a better picture. If not, and if it gives me more flexible shutter options, I can certainly use 24p normal.

March 30th, 2004, 02:51 PM	#8
Anthony Meluso Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 53	If shooting in 24P the normal default shutter speed should be 1/48. If that's not an option on the camera then panasonic people do not understand what 24 frames per second means in response to shutter speed. The shutter speed should always be double the frame rate for proper shooting. Ex. 24P = 1/24 shutter, 30P = 1/60 shutter, the same applies to shooting 60i = 1/60 shutter. Any slower or faster shutter speeds will create unproper shooting conditions. However, that can prove to be your advantage if you are trying to achieve a certain style. Ex. The strobe effect is created when shooting with faster shutter speeds - 24P = 1/96 shutter. This was done in Saving Private Ryan Good Luck

March 30th, 2004, 09:00 PM	#10
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	I've shot a few plays, and as far exposure goes, you need to find out what the lighting is like. For the extreme DIY productions I shot, the lighting was very uneven. There's no way I could have shot it manual with my camera, which, like most of these cams, has tiny, fiddly controls that are pretty useless for adjusting on the fly. Ken's advice to find the middle exposure is solid advice if it's a professional looking production, but don't wait to find out the night of the show. Find out who's doing the lights and see if you can have any input. I've found artists who are putting on their own shows always want it to be really dark. They think it's moody or something. Very aggravating. An even bigger problem is sound, but that's a different post.

March 31st, 2004, 12:34 AM	#11
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	i've shot plenty of staged shows with the DVX and it works very well. Be careful if you know the show will be utilizing many different lighting designs(many different hues), it will throw off your white balance and your flesh tones will look unatural under extreme conditions with very strong colored lights. http://www.umich.edu/~ywenz/theatre

March 31st, 2004, 08:45 AM	#12
Jaser Stockert Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: California Posts: 147	yang, i see your play had different lighting conditions...how did you deal w/ white balancing and exposure under these extreme changing conditions? thanks...

March 31st, 2004, 04:20 PM	#13
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	I find that you definitely need to save different WB settings for parts of the performance when a single strong hue is lighting the stage. Using the same WB settings for vastly different lighting conditions will guarantee a bad image in the end. Go to the dress rehersals to fig out the lighting sequence for your performance.