Picture adjustment: GL2 vs DVX100 at DVinfo.net

Kaifoong Kok · November 28th, 2003, 10:40 AM

I have doubt about how DVX100 's Gamma adjustment works. I saw its works and the result is impressive, mostly on the "boost up on dark area" for its cine-gamma mode.

When reading GL2 (XM2), it talks about adjustable Colour-Gain, Colour-Phase, Sharpness and Black-Level Adjustments. To combine all the above, can I get the result similar to that gamma adjustment of DVX100 (especially the black-level adjustment)?

Hoping to hear from any experts or experience users on it. Thanks!

Ken Tanaka · November 28th, 2003, 02:38 PM

No, the DVX100's gamma adjustments are quite different from the GL2's imaging adjustments.

That aside, however, use of the GL2's adjustments do enable a skilled camera operator to shoot some very compelling imagery under controlled conditions.

Kaifoong Kok · November 30th, 2003, 10:12 AM

Thanks Ken. How do you rate the 'film look' in GL2's pictures? I did some research on the pictures shot by GL2 and DVX100, and they are quite different! GL2's result seems very sharp and video-like, and DVX100's are sharp and smooth ( actually, quite similar to that of VX2000/PD150 ?)

The thing is, GL2 has a perfect price tag for me, DVX100 is a bit too high, sadly VX2k/PD150 are out of the market in my country (malaysia/singapore)! Can't find them selling anywhere! I was hoping to get cheap price on them since the VX2100/PD170 will be out very soon. As a result, I was hoping that GL2 can produce "good enough" picture (as use for indie drama filmmaking). I don't mind to do lots of adjustment only if it's possible to be adjusted.

Kaifoong Kok · November 30th, 2003, 10:18 AM

Question: GL2's zoom area is 4.2-84 mm, and DVX100 is 4.5-45mm. Does GL2 has a even better wide-angle (4.2 vs 4.5) then DVX100?

Ho Chee Woe · November 30th, 2003, 05:16 PM

you may go SIM LIM Square to try and compare by yourself. you can find most prosumer camcorder there.(eg.DVX100,PD150,XL1/S)

Ken Tanaka · November 30th, 2003, 08:04 PM

Certainly the DVX100 has distinctive features such as Cine gamma and 24fps along with "true" progressive frames.

But care and practice with the GL2 will certainly produce excellent results. I prefer to turn the GL2's sharpness down by 1 or 2 clicks and underexpose scenes by just a touch on most scenes.

The DVX100 has a wider lens than the GL2 but a shorter zoom. Adding a good wide angle adapter to the GL2, such as the WD-58, will compensate for that difference reasonably well.

Barry Green · November 30th, 2003, 11:30 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Kaifoong Kok : Does GL2 has a even better wide-angle (4.2 vs 4.5) then DVX100? -->>>

No, because the GL2's chips are smaller, so they see less of the image from the lens. 4.5 on the DVX100 (with its 1/3" chips) is significantly wider than 4.2 on the GL2 (with its 1/4" chips). The DVX will have about a 30% wider field of view than the GL2.

Chris Hurd · December 1st, 2003, 12:46 AM

Just to follow up on Barry's post, Panasonic itentionally gave the DVX100 a nice, wide field of view. In fact, I believe it's the widest yet available in its class. Another smart move by Panasonic... the DVX is one very nicely conceived camera.

Kaifoong Kok · December 1st, 2003, 11:37 AM

Thanks guys for your informative responses :) I read a reply from another forum saying that we can actually use Magic Bullet to do gamma correction (as well as 24p) in post; I was wondering can that produce the same result as in DVX100?

Also, I read an article saying the depth of field that dVX100 gave is smaller (very useful feature for me) as compare to PD150 etc. because of its larger diameter (72mm vs. 58mm) lens. But we can change this after putting in an adapter (such as wide lens) on to the GL2 or PD150 right?

Barry Green · December 1st, 2003, 01:48 PM

"I was wondering can that produce the same result as in DVX100?"

No, not by a long shot. It'll produce something somewhat similar, but it won't be the same. Doing it in-camera is vastly superior to trying to do it in post. The DVX100 in progressive mode is much higher resolution than either the Canon or Sony, and using Magic Bullet causes a *decrease* in resolution as fields are blended together. So the end result, using Magic Bullet, will be filmish footage, but the DVX will be substantially sharper.

As for gamma correction, etc. -- you can do some correction in post, but the DVX lets you correct for it as you're shooting -- so the DSP handles highlight adjustment or black stretch, and you get much better results that way. Finally, doing it in post means you'll encounter at least one recompression cycle, which will further lower quality.

The best way to go is in-camera if at all possible -- but if you have to do it with a PD150, Magic Bullet, and post color-correction, it's still possible to achieve very nice results. Not the SAME, like you asked, but still very nice.

"because of its larger diameter (72mm vs. 58mm) lens."

No, diameter has nothing to do with it. The PD150 can give a shallower depth of field because its lens is more telephoto (72mm vs. 45mm). At focal lengths of 45mm or below, the PD150 and DVX deliver identical depth of field, but the PD150 lens is more telephoto so it can deliver shallower DOF.

"But we can change this after putting in an adapter (such as wide lens) on to the GL2 or PD150 right?"

Adding a wide-angle adapter to the other cameras will give you a similar field of view, and similar DOF characteristics, as the DVX100 at those focal lengths.

Ho Chee Woe · December 1st, 2003, 07:21 PM

"I read an article saying the depth of field that dVX100 gave is smaller"
the answer is YES and NO.

Yes, if you are saying to get the same subject size from same distant. according to the fomula:

DOF = Df - Dn
Df = hs / (h - (s-f))
Dn = hs/ (h + (s-f))
h = (f*f)/Ac

A = Aperture, S = Subject Distant, f = focus length, c = circle of confusion

so, if PD150 user want to put the same size of subject inside frame, they can't maintain the same focus length or distant as DVX100. this is the reason why many people say DVX100's 72mm lens can get better DOF than PD150's 58mm

-------------

No, as Barry Green mentioned.

btw, are you refer to DVWorld's review?

Kaifoong Kok · December 2nd, 2003, 07:05 AM

Thanks Barry and Ho!

And yes Ho, the test report from DVWorld :) Regarding the formula, where is the 72mm filter diameter lens sits in? was it c ?

I found that your are from Malaysia too? KL? Are you in the film/video industry? Do you happen to know where in KL/PJ area that I can find prosumer/professional video equipments? I just find them around the city but it's like 1 panny at sungai wang and 1 xm2 at megamall etc. And beside that, can't expect accessaries or helps from those salesman in cunsumer based stores, I tried to ask them questions and they can't answer me. And also their price is often "too high". Singapore has a petty good price but just worry about the warrenty and custom tax problem. Any suggestion? The models in mind now: xm2, pdx10, vx2000/2100, pd150/170, dvx100.

Corey Sturmer · December 2nd, 2003, 06:07 PM

Recompression cycle? Are you saying that if I took freshly-captured video, dropped it in premier, and exported it again the resolution would degrade? How is that? I'm not using any compressions like Cinepak or Video for windows....

Ho Chee Woe · December 2nd, 2003, 06:55 PM

hi Kaifoong,
nice to meet you. i am a 100% end user from JB. :)
i bought my pd150 from s'pore. this is because the prosumer model is a bit expensive in m'sia. only consumer model is cheaper in m'sia (eg:vx2000, trv950), at least in JB.

you better try and check the detail in sim lim square(s'pore). most products are available there (incl. xm2, pdx10, vx2000, pd150/170, dvx100,dv301,xl1/s,dv5000,250,370,570W...).
it is good to test the camcorder before you buy.

i suggest you to wait for the dvx100A if possible. this model has big improvement compared to "ebay flooded model"(just kidding) DVX100.

please do contact us if you are willing to visit to simlim~ :)

the formula itself doesn't involved the lens diameter but the point is the subject distant and focus length. from the reading in the link below, you may able to catch what i mean. :)

http://www.dvworld.com.tw/product/DVX100_test/part4/dvx100_vs_lens.jpg

Barry Green · December 2nd, 2003, 09:08 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Corey Sturmer : Recompression cycle? Are you saying that if I took freshly-captured video, dropped it in premier, and exported it again the resolution would degrade? -->>>

No -- if you do what you just said, there will be no recompression.

The question was in regards to gamma correction in post. If you do color correction or gamma correction, the NLE will uncompress the footage and then apply the effect. Then to get it back out to tape it will have to recompress it, using the DV codec.

November 28th, 2003, 10:40 AM	#1
Kaifoong Kok Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 57	Picture adjustment: GL2 vs DVX100 I have doubt about how DVX100 's Gamma adjustment works. I saw its works and the result is impressive, mostly on the "boost up on dark area" for its cine-gamma mode. When reading GL2 (XM2), it talks about adjustable Colour-Gain, Colour-Phase, Sharpness and Black-Level Adjustments. To combine all the above, can I get the result similar to that gamma adjustment of DVX100 (especially the black-level adjustment)? Hoping to hear from any experts or experience users on it. Thanks! __________________ KaiF

November 28th, 2003, 02:38 PM	#2
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	No, the DVX100's gamma adjustments are quite different from the GL2's imaging adjustments. That aside, however, use of the GL2's adjustments do enable a skilled camera operator to shoot some very compelling imagery under controlled conditions. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

November 30th, 2003, 10:12 AM	#3
Kaifoong Kok Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 57	Thanks Ken. How do you rate the 'film look' in GL2's pictures? I did some research on the pictures shot by GL2 and DVX100, and they are quite different! GL2's result seems very sharp and video-like, and DVX100's are sharp and smooth ( actually, quite similar to that of VX2000/PD150 ?) The thing is, GL2 has a perfect price tag for me, DVX100 is a bit too high, sadly VX2k/PD150 are out of the market in my country (malaysia/singapore)! Can't find them selling anywhere! I was hoping to get cheap price on them since the VX2100/PD170 will be out very soon. As a result, I was hoping that GL2 can produce "good enough" picture (as use for indie drama filmmaking). I don't mind to do lots of adjustment only if it's possible to be adjusted. __________________ KaiF

November 30th, 2003, 10:18 AM	#4
Kaifoong Kok Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 57	Question: GL2's zoom area is 4.2-84 mm, and DVX100 is 4.5-45mm. Does GL2 has a even better wide-angle (4.2 vs 4.5) then DVX100? __________________ KaiF

November 30th, 2003, 08:04 PM	#6
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Certainly the DVX100 has distinctive features such as Cine gamma and 24fps along with "true" progressive frames. But care and practice with the GL2 will certainly produce excellent results. I prefer to turn the GL2's sharpness down by 1 or 2 clicks and underexpose scenes by just a touch on most scenes. The DVX100 has a wider lens than the GL2 but a shorter zoom. Adding a good wide angle adapter to the GL2, such as the WD-58, will compensate for that difference reasonably well. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

November 30th, 2003, 05:16 PM	#5
Ho Chee Woe New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 12	you may go SIM LIM Square to try and compare by yourself. you can find most prosumer camcorder there.(eg.DVX100,PD150,XL1/S)

November 30th, 2003, 11:30 PM	#7
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	<<<-- Originally posted by Kaifoong Kok : Does GL2 has a even better wide-angle (4.2 vs 4.5) then DVX100? -->>> No, because the GL2's chips are smaller, so they see less of the image from the lens. 4.5 on the DVX100 (with its 1/3" chips) is significantly wider than 4.2 on the GL2 (with its 1/4" chips). The DVX will have about a 30% wider field of view than the GL2.

December 1st, 2003, 12:46 AM	#8
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Just to follow up on Barry's post, Panasonic itentionally gave the DVX100 a nice, wide field of view. In fact, I believe it's the widest yet available in its class. Another smart move by Panasonic... the DVX is one very nicely conceived camera. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

December 1st, 2003, 11:37 AM	#9
Kaifoong Kok Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 57	Thanks guys for your informative responses :) I read a reply from another forum saying that we can actually use Magic Bullet to do gamma correction (as well as 24p) in post; I was wondering can that produce the same result as in DVX100? Also, I read an article saying the depth of field that dVX100 gave is smaller (very useful feature for me) as compare to PD150 etc. because of its larger diameter (72mm vs. 58mm) lens. But we can change this after putting in an adapter (such as wide lens) on to the GL2 or PD150 right? __________________ KaiF

December 1st, 2003, 01:48 PM	#10
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	"I was wondering can that produce the same result as in DVX100?" No, not by a long shot. It'll produce something somewhat similar, but it won't be the same. Doing it in-camera is vastly superior to trying to do it in post. The DVX100 in progressive mode is much higher resolution than either the Canon or Sony, and using Magic Bullet causes a decrease in resolution as fields are blended together. So the end result, using Magic Bullet, will be filmish footage, but the DVX will be substantially sharper. As for gamma correction, etc. -- you can do some correction in post, but the DVX lets you correct for it as you're shooting -- so the DSP handles highlight adjustment or black stretch, and you get much better results that way. Finally, doing it in post means you'll encounter at least one recompression cycle, which will further lower quality. The best way to go is in-camera if at all possible -- but if you have to do it with a PD150, Magic Bullet, and post color-correction, it's still possible to achieve very nice results. Not the SAME, like you asked, but still very nice. "because of its larger diameter (72mm vs. 58mm) lens." No, diameter has nothing to do with it. The PD150 can give a shallower depth of field because its lens is more telephoto (72mm vs. 45mm). At focal lengths of 45mm or below, the PD150 and DVX deliver identical depth of field, but the PD150 lens is more telephoto so it can deliver shallower DOF. "But we can change this after putting in an adapter (such as wide lens) on to the GL2 or PD150 right?" Adding a wide-angle adapter to the other cameras will give you a similar field of view, and similar DOF characteristics, as the DVX100 at those focal lengths.

December 1st, 2003, 07:21 PM	#11
Ho Chee Woe New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 12	"I read an article saying the depth of field that dVX100 gave is smaller" the answer is YES and NO. Yes, if you are saying to get the same subject size from same distant. according to the fomula: DOF = Df - Dn Df = hs / (h - (s-f)) Dn = hs/ (h + (s-f)) h = (f*f)/Ac A = Aperture, S = Subject Distant, f = focus length, c = circle of confusion so, if PD150 user want to put the same size of subject inside frame, they can't maintain the same focus length or distant as DVX100. this is the reason why many people say DVX100's 72mm lens can get better DOF than PD150's 58mm ------------- No, as Barry Green mentioned. btw, are you refer to DVWorld's review?

December 2nd, 2003, 07:05 AM	#12
Kaifoong Kok Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 57	Thanks Barry and Ho! And yes Ho, the test report from DVWorld :) Regarding the formula, where is the 72mm filter diameter lens sits in? was it c ? I found that your are from Malaysia too? KL? Are you in the film/video industry? Do you happen to know where in KL/PJ area that I can find prosumer/professional video equipments? I just find them around the city but it's like 1 panny at sungai wang and 1 xm2 at megamall etc. And beside that, can't expect accessaries or helps from those salesman in cunsumer based stores, I tried to ask them questions and they can't answer me. And also their price is often "too high". Singapore has a petty good price but just worry about the warrenty and custom tax problem. Any suggestion? The models in mind now: xm2, pdx10, vx2000/2100, pd150/170, dvx100. __________________ KaiF

December 2nd, 2003, 06:07 PM	#13
Corey Sturmer Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 144	Recompression cycle? Are you saying that if I took freshly-captured video, dropped it in premier, and exported it again the resolution would degrade? How is that? I'm not using any compressions like Cinepak or Video for windows.... __________________ Corey Sturmer Producer - Woffester Productions

December 2nd, 2003, 06:55 PM	#14
Ho Chee Woe New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 12	hi Kaifoong, nice to meet you. i am a 100% end user from JB. :) i bought my pd150 from s'pore. this is because the prosumer model is a bit expensive in m'sia. only consumer model is cheaper in m'sia (eg:vx2000, trv950), at least in JB. you better try and check the detail in sim lim square(s'pore). most products are available there (incl. xm2, pdx10, vx2000, pd150/170, dvx100,dv301,xl1/s,dv5000,250,370,570W...). it is good to test the camcorder before you buy. i suggest you to wait for the dvx100A if possible. this model has big improvement compared to "ebay flooded model"(just kidding) DVX100. please do contact us if you are willing to visit to simlim~ :) the formula itself doesn't involved the lens diameter but the point is the subject distant and focus length. from the reading in the link below, you may able to catch what i mean. :) http://www.dvworld.com.tw/product/DVX100_test/part4/dvx100_vs_lens.jpg

December 2nd, 2003, 09:08 PM	#15
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	<<<-- Originally posted by Corey Sturmer : Recompression cycle? Are you saying that if I took freshly-captured video, dropped it in premier, and exported it again the resolution would degrade? -->>> No -- if you do what you just said, there will be no recompression. The question was in regards to gamma correction in post. If you do color correction or gamma correction, the NLE will uncompress the footage and then apply the effect. Then to get it back out to tape it will have to recompress it, using the DV codec.