24p questions

Rachel Bower · March 26th, 2006, 12:29 PM

I will be shooting a documentary - I planned to shoot 24p, are there any advantages to shooting 24p advanced if I am not going to transfer to film? The chances of transferring to film are slim to none. My plan is to master the documentary to digital betacam, and distribute via DVD’s.

I will be editing on FCP4.
Thanks!

Javier Urena · March 26th, 2006, 02:33 PM

Shoot 24pa.

This will give you higher resolution, the ability to edit on a 24p timeline, and the ability to make a 24p DVD.

You can also add pulldown in FCP in order to transfer to digibeta.

David Jimerson · March 26th, 2006, 04:31 PM

24pA won't be higher resolution than standard 24p. 24p and 24pA are acquired exactly the same way and only take on a difference in the way they're split up to be recorded in a 60i stream.

There's an argument to be made that because 24p and 24pA use (very) slightly different compressions, and because it's easier to extract the 24p frames from a 24pA stream, that there might be something akin to a partial generational loss when using 24p instead of 24pA. But I've never seen a difference between the two.

That siad, I agree -- if you plan to edit in 24p, which you should if you have the option, then shoot 24pA.

Rachel Bower · March 27th, 2006, 03:47 AM

Thank you!
Rachel

Frederick Dooman · April 15th, 2006, 11:45 AM

I have the project with 24p material. Do I need to have a deck with 24p capabilities to capture on AXP 5.2.4?

Also five Hours of the same project was shot on 30p. Can 24p and 30p exist together on the same timeline?

The 24p project was shot on Panasonic DVX100.

Thanks for any help.

Barry Green · April 15th, 2006, 04:16 PM

Any deck will work.

Dave Findley · May 29th, 2006, 09:28 PM

Does it matter which 24p mode I shoot in if I'm thinking about eventual uprez to HD?

Barry Green · May 29th, 2006, 09:53 PM

The only answer to the 24p/24pA question is: how are you going to edit it?

If editing on a 24P timeline, shoot 24PA. Always.

If editing on a 60i timeline, shoot 24P.

Doesn't matter what you plan to do to the footage afterwards (i.e., blow up to HD, to film, etc); it's all about how you intend to work with the footage.

And now that most every NLE (except Liquid) supports 24p ingest properly, the answer is almost always going to be the same from now on: shoot 24pA.

Dave Findley · May 29th, 2006, 11:00 PM

Not clear on how to capture 24p or 24pa in Final Cut Pro. I've searched for articles, and found (1) Gramme's piece at Ken Stone's Final Cut Pro site that says for capturing 24pa, use the easy setup for 23.98 (advanced pull down removal), but then found where Noah Kadner advises on Larry Jordan's site to capture 24pa in 29.97- he says capture at 23.98 will randomly remove frames, but not the flagged frames. Which is it or are they both right (ie the easy set up 23.98 (advanced pulldown removal) is capturing at 29.97?

Ash Greyson · May 30th, 2006, 12:18 PM

Generally progressive footage upconverts better...

ash =o)

Tony Tibbetts · May 30th, 2006, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Findley

Not clear on how to capture 24p or 24pa in Final Cut Pro. I've searched for articles, and found (1) Gramme's piece at Ken Stone's Final Cut Pro site that says for capturing 24pa, use the easy setup for 23.98 (advanced pull down removal), but then found where Noah Kadner advises on Larry Jordan's site to capture 24pa in 29.97- he says capture at 23.98 will randomly remove frames, but not the flagged frames. Which is it or are they both right (ie the easy set up 23.98 (advanced pulldown removal) is capturing at 29.97?

Hmm... this is news to me. If the pull down method in camera is the same as the pull down method in the NLE (i.e. 2:3:3:2) I don't see how this would be a problem. I'm no expert, but I haven't noticed what you are talking about. Here's a thread which goes into it in better detail I believe:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=40508

August 10th, 2006, 01:34 PM

newbie to video here. there is probably answers to my questions but they are most likely burried deep in the forums.

Few quick questions: Is having the 24p feature built into the camera better than having a camera without the 24p feature and adding the effect in post?

I ask this because i truly enjoy the look and feel of it but was wondering if i can achieve this effect just as well in post using a cheaper camera. Also, the same question about gamma settings. Can i acheive excellent gamma settings in post rather in the camera? Why would panasonic add these features in the camera if it can be produced just as well on the computer?

What is the ideal program for these effects? Magic Bullet? FCP? Aftereffects?

If program editing is just as good as in camera settings, should i concider getting panasonic DVC instead?

Thanks.

Peter Jefferson · August 11th, 2006, 05:28 AM

Few quick questions: Is having the 24p feature built into the camera better than having a camera without the 24p feature and adding the effect in post?
((Its not an effect.. it away of life.. lol.. no actually i'll start again..
Its NOT an effect.. i repeat.. its NOT an effect... please get that thinking out before u go any further..
Progressive scan is a format within DV.. on teh DVX, Porgressive frames are embeded with an interlaced stream.. that streams purpose is for transport only.. however the frames themselves are ACTUAL frames..
What this means is that you are shooting in FULL resolution PER FRAME... which is embeded within that 50/60i stresm..
Interlaced temporal resolution does not work this way.. interlaced, is half vertical res for each of the 2 fields per frame, hence the motion and luminance difference between Progressive and interlaced... less pixels in use, less CPU power required (ie faster auto modes), less exposure required to illuminate said pixels (ie interlaced is using half the pixels required), less pixels also means less noise.. and larger surface area.. in progressive, u have a larger CCD surface which requires more light.
If u intend to interpolate your interlaced footage to progressive, id strongly recomed u run a sharpness filter.. as you'll be defeating the purpose of the camra itself if u only choose to shoot interlaced...
Unlike hat some people believe, you wont be losing half ur reslution, but yourll be forcing the PC to interpolate the 2 fields into the one frame (very similar to an in cam frame mode, as found in Sony and Canon cameras and Panas own DVC30). Interpolation causes softness in the image, strobing of slowmotion (somtimes) interlace flicker (sometimes). In addition, interlaced footage cannot physically share the same dynamic range variance of a progressive frame, simply bause of teh CCD pickup method.. its like take 2 half photos to create the one picture, where as with progressive, your literally shooting THAT said frame AS IS.))

I ask this because i truly enjoy the look and feel of it but was wondering if i can achieve this effect just as well in post using a cheaper camera.

((Depends on how cheap you wan tto go.. u can do it in post, but it wont look the same.. it wont be as sharp or as defined... some camera have an inluilt frame mode.. this works in a similar way.. its not the same, but it is simialr.. ))

Also, the same question about gamma settings. Can i acheive excellent gamma settings in post rather in the camera?
((no.. to a point.. the camera has a range of gamma, knee and pedestal settings for u to tweak ur image for optimal acquisition. These offer higher dynamic Ranges and coupled with teh lense, and the CCD itself, make the image what they are.. If u start with an inferiro image, youll be spending more time in post correcting, curving and grading as oppsed to editing.. thre are no shortcuts with this... Start with a good clean image, and tweak later, or start with a good clean image which reporoduces what you want out of teh box and theres no need for tweaks in post. For me, the time i have saved in correcting and grading has been worth every extra penny.. ))

Why would panasonic add these features in the camera if it can be produced just as well on the computer?

((It cant.. u can get close to it.. but in the end, if u start with an inferior image, youll end up with inferior product.. How valuable is your time?? how many hours extra are u willing to put into an edit to recrete this "look"))

What is the ideal program for these effects? Magic Bullet? FCP? Aftereffects?

((Anyhting that can interpolate fields into frames... for the gamma curves, Vegas has incredible tweakability curves filter, as well as levels, colour correctors, balances, and gradient filters which are quite astounding considering the price of teh product. AE andMagic Bullet also work a treat.. as for MB, if u care to wait 8 to 12 times longer for your render then go for it.. for AE, if u can handle the Adobe interface go for it.. PremPro 2 has made some headway, but with premiere, progressive scan has never been its strong point.. ))

If program editing is just as good as in camera settings, should i concider getting panasonic DVC instead?

((if u go a DVC30, u can get close to the tweaks of the 100.. u can switch to frame mode and a pseudo 16:9 which looks rather good. Gamma and colour however are nowhere near as pristine as teh DVX though.. so if u think u can pass off a DVC30 to a 100, u can forget that notion before u even get it. Ive tried.. trust me.. i took teh 30 back and spent another 2k on a 100..

August 12th, 2006, 07:04 AM

thanks peter!

you have been very helpful. After reviewing my funds, it appears that i will not be able to afford the 100...it seems that the 100 is the cheapest model offering true 24p.

*sigh

Thanks for giving me the heads-up on the drawbacks of post 24p.

hey, i found this site. not that you need to read it but it might be of interest: http://www.100fps.com/

Chris Ruona · January 3rd, 2007, 08:30 AM

I imported some footage the other day through a small canon camcorder like z70 or something and it was originally shot with my DVX on 24p and i was curious why the footage is interlaced. i use adobe premiere pro 1. are there any import settings that i should adjust? any help would be appreciated.

-Chris

March 26th, 2006, 12:29 PM	#556
Rachel Bower Tourist Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Nova Scotia, Canda Posts: 3	24p or 24pA? I will be shooting a documentary - I planned to shoot 24p, are there any advantages to shooting 24p advanced if I am not going to transfer to film? The chances of transferring to film are slim to none. My plan is to master the documentary to digital betacam, and distribute via DVD’s. I will be editing on FCP4. Thanks!

March 26th, 2006, 04:31 PM	#558
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	24pA won't be higher resolution than standard 24p. 24p and 24pA are acquired exactly the same way and only take on a difference in the way they're split up to be recorded in a 60i stream. There's an argument to be made that because 24p and 24pA use (very) slightly different compressions, and because it's easier to extract the 24p frames from a 24pA stream, that there might be something akin to a partial generational loss when using 24p instead of 24pA. But I've never seen a difference between the two. That siad, I agree -- if you plan to edit in 24p, which you should if you have the option, then shoot 24pA. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

April 15th, 2006, 11:45 AM	#560
Frederick Dooman New Boot Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, Ca. Posts: 9	Do I need a deck with 24p capabilities to capture on AXP 5.2.4? I have the project with 24p material. Do I need to have a deck with 24p capabilities to capture on AXP 5.2.4? Also five Hours of the same project was shot on 30p. Can 24p and 30p exist together on the same timeline? The 24p project was shot on Panasonic DVX100. Thanks for any help.

May 29th, 2006, 09:28 PM	#562
Dave Findley Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nashville Posts: 39	24p or 24pa for eventual uprez to HD? Does it matter which 24p mode I shoot in if I'm thinking about eventual uprez to HD?

May 29th, 2006, 11:00 PM	#564
Dave Findley Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nashville Posts: 39	How to capture? Not clear on how to capture 24p or 24pa in Final Cut Pro. I've searched for articles, and found (1) Gramme's piece at Ken Stone's Final Cut Pro site that says for capturing 24pa, use the easy setup for 23.98 (advanced pull down removal), but then found where Noah Kadner advises on Larry Jordan's site to capture 24pa in 29.97- he says capture at 23.98 will randomly remove frames, but not the flagged frames. Which is it or are they both right (ie the easy set up 23.98 (advanced pulldown removal) is capturing at 29.97?

March 26th, 2006, 02:33 PM	#557
Javier Urena Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 67	Shoot 24pa. This will give you higher resolution, the ability to edit on a 24p timeline, and the ability to make a 24p DVD. You can also add pulldown in FCP in order to transfer to digibeta.

March 27th, 2006, 03:47 AM	#559
Rachel Bower Tourist Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Nova Scotia, Canda Posts: 3	Thank you! Rachel

April 15th, 2006, 04:16 PM	#561
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Any deck will work.

May 29th, 2006, 09:53 PM	#563
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	The only answer to the 24p/24pA question is: how are you going to edit it? If editing on a 24P timeline, shoot 24PA. Always. If editing on a 60i timeline, shoot 24P. Doesn't matter what you plan to do to the footage afterwards (i.e., blow up to HD, to film, etc); it's all about how you intend to work with the footage. And now that most every NLE (except Liquid) supports 24p ingest properly, the answer is almost always going to be the same from now on: shoot 24pA.

May 30th, 2006, 12:18 PM	#565
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Generally progressive footage upconverts better... ash =o)

August 10th, 2006, 01:34 PM	#567
Raffy Ochoa Posts: n/a	24p on the dvx. newbie to video here. there is probably answers to my questions but they are most likely burried deep in the forums. Few quick questions: Is having the 24p feature built into the camera better than having a camera without the 24p feature and adding the effect in post? I ask this because i truly enjoy the look and feel of it but was wondering if i can achieve this effect just as well in post using a cheaper camera. Also, the same question about gamma settings. Can i acheive excellent gamma settings in post rather in the camera? Why would panasonic add these features in the camera if it can be produced just as well on the computer? What is the ideal program for these effects? Magic Bullet? FCP? Aftereffects? If program editing is just as good as in camera settings, should i concider getting panasonic DVC instead? Thanks.

August 11th, 2006, 05:28 AM	#568
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	Few quick questions: Is having the 24p feature built into the camera better than having a camera without the 24p feature and adding the effect in post? ((Its not an effect.. it away of life.. lol.. no actually i'll start again.. Its NOT an effect.. i repeat.. its NOT an effect... please get that thinking out before u go any further.. Progressive scan is a format within DV.. on teh DVX, Porgressive frames are embeded with an interlaced stream.. that streams purpose is for transport only.. however the frames themselves are ACTUAL frames.. What this means is that you are shooting in FULL resolution PER FRAME... which is embeded within that 50/60i stresm.. Interlaced temporal resolution does not work this way.. interlaced, is half vertical res for each of the 2 fields per frame, hence the motion and luminance difference between Progressive and interlaced... less pixels in use, less CPU power required (ie faster auto modes), less exposure required to illuminate said pixels (ie interlaced is using half the pixels required), less pixels also means less noise.. and larger surface area.. in progressive, u have a larger CCD surface which requires more light. If u intend to interpolate your interlaced footage to progressive, id strongly recomed u run a sharpness filter.. as you'll be defeating the purpose of the camra itself if u only choose to shoot interlaced... Unlike hat some people believe, you wont be losing half ur reslution, but yourll be forcing the PC to interpolate the 2 fields into the one frame (very similar to an in cam frame mode, as found in Sony and Canon cameras and Panas own DVC30). Interpolation causes softness in the image, strobing of slowmotion (somtimes) interlace flicker (sometimes). In addition, interlaced footage cannot physically share the same dynamic range variance of a progressive frame, simply bause of teh CCD pickup method.. its like take 2 half photos to create the one picture, where as with progressive, your literally shooting THAT said frame AS IS.)) I ask this because i truly enjoy the look and feel of it but was wondering if i can achieve this effect just as well in post using a cheaper camera. ((Depends on how cheap you wan tto go.. u can do it in post, but it wont look the same.. it wont be as sharp or as defined... some camera have an inluilt frame mode.. this works in a similar way.. its not the same, but it is simialr.. )) Also, the same question about gamma settings. Can i acheive excellent gamma settings in post rather in the camera? ((no.. to a point.. the camera has a range of gamma, knee and pedestal settings for u to tweak ur image for optimal acquisition. These offer higher dynamic Ranges and coupled with teh lense, and the CCD itself, make the image what they are.. If u start with an inferiro image, youll be spending more time in post correcting, curving and grading as oppsed to editing.. thre are no shortcuts with this... Start with a good clean image, and tweak later, or start with a good clean image which reporoduces what you want out of teh box and theres no need for tweaks in post. For me, the time i have saved in correcting and grading has been worth every extra penny.. )) Why would panasonic add these features in the camera if it can be produced just as well on the computer? ((It cant.. u can get close to it.. but in the end, if u start with an inferior image, youll end up with inferior product.. How valuable is your time?? how many hours extra are u willing to put into an edit to recrete this "look")) What is the ideal program for these effects? Magic Bullet? FCP? Aftereffects? ((Anyhting that can interpolate fields into frames... for the gamma curves, Vegas has incredible tweakability curves filter, as well as levels, colour correctors, balances, and gradient filters which are quite astounding considering the price of teh product. AE andMagic Bullet also work a treat.. as for MB, if u care to wait 8 to 12 times longer for your render then go for it.. for AE, if u can handle the Adobe interface go for it.. PremPro 2 has made some headway, but with premiere, progressive scan has never been its strong point.. )) If program editing is just as good as in camera settings, should i concider getting panasonic DVC instead? ((if u go a DVC30, u can get close to the tweaks of the 100.. u can switch to frame mode and a pseudo 16:9 which looks rather good. Gamma and colour however are nowhere near as pristine as teh DVX though.. so if u think u can pass off a DVC30 to a 100, u can forget that notion before u even get it. Ive tried.. trust me.. i took teh 30 back and spent another 2k on a 100..

August 12th, 2006, 07:04 AM	#569
Raffy Ochoa Posts: n/a	thanks peter! you have been very helpful. After reviewing my funds, it appears that i will not be able to afford the 100...it seems that the 100 is the cheapest model offering true 24p. *sigh Thanks for giving me the heads-up on the drawbacks of post 24p. hey, i found this site. not that you need to read it but it might be of interest: http://www.100fps.com/

January 3rd, 2007, 08:30 AM	#570
Chris Ruona Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 31	24p interlacing I imported some footage the other day through a small canon camcorder like z70 or something and it was originally shot with my DVX on 24p and i was curious why the footage is interlaced. i use adobe premiere pro 1. are there any import settings that i should adjust? any help would be appreciated. -Chris