24p questions

Lyndon Golanowski · June 23rd, 2004, 10:45 PM

What frame rate should I use, 23.97, 24 or 29.97? I read that 29.97 is the best. Any tips guys? Im using Vegas 5.0

Stefan Scherperel · June 23rd, 2004, 11:00 PM

Depends on what you want to do with your footage. Since you shot 24PS, your footage will edit best in 29.97 (NTSC DV template) and will also edit fine in 23.97 timeline. Vegas will figure everything else out for you. IF you are going to be using your footage, with footage from another camera, then use the NTSC DV template. If you want to make a 24p dvd, then use the 23.97 template.

Barry Green · June 24th, 2004, 11:16 AM

With Vegas, it's really simple: if you want to edit the pure 24P frames, choose the NTSC 24P template (and make sure that in the preferences, you have the "allow pulldown removal" option checked). If you're just editing for videotape, you can use the NTSC DV template (in which case, you would want the "allow pulldown removal" option NOT checked).

Eric Shimley · July 26th, 2004, 12:00 PM

When transferring something shot in 24p from tape to hard drive, do you have to use a deck (i.e. the dvx100 camera itself) that uses 24p, or can I use any old DV deck?

I am probably going to buy one of these this week, I live near B&H, so that's probably where I'll get it. But if anyone knows any better, cheaper and just as reputable place to get it, please let me know. Has anyone bought one of the "package deals" from B&H and would you consider it worth it? Thanks again.

Michael Summers · July 26th, 2004, 12:08 PM

evs is a bit cheaper i think if you mention dvxuser or dvinfo and, yes, you can use any deck to transfer dvx footage in 24p, i use an old jvc mini dv camcorder.

Harish Kumar · August 15th, 2004, 08:57 AM

I shot a feature on 24pa and editied on premiere with 29.97. film came out very successful and somebody wants to buy it and transfer to film and put bit on theatre. now do I need to do anything so that the transfer is smooth ...or is the transfer possible ? How expensive is it going to be and what would be the quality level?

Shot on dvx100 at 24pa
edited on Matrox digisuite mjpeg. on premiere at 29.97

we projected the film(1st premiere Aug 1st) in rental theatre on a 9x12 rear projection screen with a digital projector 2400 luman resolution. The quality was very good . The theatre had a seating capacity of 500 people and the film quality was very clear and visible from each corner.

How different and bigger would be the theatre screen ? If the quality was very good on a 9x12 screen from a DVD , Would it be almost good or very good on the theatre screen ? Is it really necessary to transfer to film ... I mean the cost and would it justify the cost ...or can it be projected from the dvd on a digital projector.?

Thanks in advance for the response

:)

Roger Van Royen · September 11th, 2004, 03:47 PM

Just wondering if anyone here has any experience using the DVX100A at night without ramping up the gain. I plan to use 24p advanced and I know this camera gets really light thirsty in that mode. I'm making it even harder on myself by refusing to allow grain in my night shots, so using gain isn't an option. I'm curious what the footage will look like in terms of general environment outside well lit areas. Will it pick up anything, or just the street and car lights? I can't experiment because I don't have my camera yet, but I need to plan my lighting needs in advance. Any input would be appreciated, especially if it comes from direct experience with the DVX100.

Imran Zaidi · September 11th, 2004, 04:05 PM

I have and depending on the particular nightscape in which you will be shooting, it won't be as bad as you think. Depending on the look you're going for, I think you'll actually be very pleased.

I shot in a environment, downtown Orlando, that is littered with those sodium lights that essentially make everything king of amber-yellowish. Here and there are bars or clubs that have the occasional neon sign, and a building or two that seem to have daylight balanced lights. In such an environment it can be tricky to get a white balance that is universal, but again, it depends on what type of look you're going for.

I decided to just use the default 3200k white balance, and was pleased with the results - and this is why... I turned down the color and the chroma level just a few notches. This does two things - it helps reduce the overall saturation of some of the really obnoxious amber streetlights, and at the same time, greatly reduces grain noise that can appear in low light around colored objects. And despite doing this, rather than distort or lessen the colors of human skin and such, it actually helped even out everything, despite the crazy mix of lighting temperatures.

I would recommend that as soon as you do get the camera, that you run out with it and test in your environment, using a variety of different settings in the camera. Because every nightscape is different, this is the only way that you will be able to know for sure. But don't worry, the camera is very workable in such environments.

Roger Van Royen · September 12th, 2004, 03:15 AM

That all sounds very encouraging. Were you filming strictly under available light or did you set up some studio lights? I was assuming I'd get a good image wherever I could concentrate artificial light, but wouldn't that cause everything surrounding the area to go pitch black? I've never been a big fan of the night scenes where you see a localized pool of light on the subject and pure blackness everywhere else, kind of claustrophobic and dull in my opinion. I actually prefer a well done day-for-night shot to that kind of "real" night.

In fact, my night shots will be supplementing a lot of day-for-night footage. I love inky blue night scenes, doesn't bother me if they may not look totally real. Besides it's a comedy/horror flick anyway. There are just a few scenes where a lack of artificial light sources - street lights, porch lights, etc. would expose the day-for-night trick and make it look really stupid - TOO stupid, even for a horror/comedy. I'd like to have a fairly natural level of detail showing outside my lighted areas, but I have zero experience with night shooting, let alone with a DVX100A. Is this a realistically obtainable goal with about 1000 watts of studio lights? That's the maximum I want to mess with outdoors.

Imran Zaidi · September 12th, 2004, 11:26 AM

I was shooting documentary style footage, with nothing but available light, in a downtown nightscape. In a scenario like that, while the footage was great for a doc piece, it may not be the right look for a narrative piece (depending on if you're going for an 'indie' look or a 'hollywood' look), and you will want to light faces and such somewhat with some well placed lighting. By 'indie' I don't mean poor quality - I just mean more natural while still maintaining good exposure and quality. It all depends on your environment and how much available light you will have.

As far as surrounding areas going black - well that will only happen if you're using auto-exposure, which of course you won't want to do in a film. I would post in the lighting section of this forum to get some tips and tricks on lighting narrative pieces outdoors at night - I'm sure you'll get some good info on that.

You're right about the day-for-night thing though - it can work when you're out away from city lights, but as soon as you're somewhere where there should be a street light or neon sign on, and it isn't, your day for night illusion is shot.

Overall, I wouldn't worry about the camera's capabilities at this stage - I would get to work collecting information about shooting DV at night, and try to absorb as much as you can about lighting techniques you can use.

Roger Van Royen · September 12th, 2004, 02:00 PM

Okay, sounds like the DVX100 can give me the look I want under the necessary conditions, which is what I was hoping to hear. My main concern is keeping grain out of my night footage and it looks like that isn't too lofty an ambition. Many thanks for the very helpful advice and input.

Daniel Hollister · September 13th, 2004, 06:10 PM

TRY TRY TRY TRY to get some lights set up. i always have the problem with the 100A in low-light in 24PA. i mean, it's fairly good under certain low-light situations, but it really depends. i don't know how dark you're talking, but i know that i have problems all the time. i always bring lights with me and hook them up to a power inverter on my car, because the streetlights don't usually get me the same effect. i, like you, try to avoid using gain whenever necessary. it can be tough. so yeah, the 100A can be pretty resilient in low-light, like everyone here says, but i urge you to be prepared anyhow. plus it still looks better to have some soft light being reflected at the subject at night anyway.

Roger Van Royen · September 14th, 2004, 02:23 PM

Hi, Daniel. How does the 100A do in evening conditions? I mean assuming it's not an overcast day and the streetlights are just coming on. I was driving around yesterday in one of my locations and it looked like some "evening-for-night" shots could work. Also, I've always planned on using my own lights with the camera in 24p advanced during night scenes. How little light can you get by with? I want to use anywhere from 250 to 1000 watts, but more than that would probably be prohibitive. Obviously I intend to block action so actors deliver their lines or perform important tasks only lighted areas.

Originally all of my "night" footage was to be day-for-night, but I quickly realized I'd have to compromise and shoot a few real night scenes where you'd need to see all the various lights of suburbia in them. I don't mind if there's some underexposure outside lit areas, but what I'm concerned about is not getting any detail at all. I'm filming pretty much in standard suburban night, no big neon signs or things like that. Imran seems to think the 100A will do fine in this regard, but I'd like to hear your opinion on it too.

Roger Van Royen · September 14th, 2004, 08:36 PM

Daniel, just to clarify my question about evening time - I meant filming at twilight WITHOUT any studio lights, as opposed to having them be a necessity in full night. How did does the 100A do in that situation?

Ozan Biron · September 15th, 2004, 02:54 AM

June 23rd, 2004, 10:45 PM	#466
Lyndon Golanowski Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 51	Editing 24p Standard? What frame rate should I use, 23.97, 24 or 29.97? I read that 29.97 is the best. Any tips guys? Im using Vegas 5.0

July 26th, 2004, 12:00 PM	#469
Eric Shimley Tourist Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3	Transferring 24p When transferring something shot in 24p from tape to hard drive, do you have to use a deck (i.e. the dvx100 camera itself) that uses 24p, or can I use any old DV deck? I am probably going to buy one of these this week, I live near B&H, so that's probably where I'll get it. But if anyone knows any better, cheaper and just as reputable place to get it, please let me know. Has anyone bought one of the "package deals" from B&H and would you consider it worth it? Thanks again.

July 26th, 2004, 12:08 PM	#470
Michael Summers Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Chicago, Illinois Posts: 65	evs is a bit cheaper i think if you mention dvxuser or dvinfo and, yes, you can use any deck to transfer dvx footage in 24p, i use an old jvc mini dv camcorder. __________________ www.astrosecretfilms.com real independent

August 15th, 2004, 08:57 AM	#471
Harish Kumar Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: TORONTO Posts: 115	24pa shot and 29.97 edit I shot a feature on 24pa and editied on premiere with 29.97. film came out very successful and somebody wants to buy it and transfer to film and put bit on theatre. now do I need to do anything so that the transfer is smooth ...or is the transfer possible ? How expensive is it going to be and what would be the quality level? Shot on dvx100 at 24pa edited on Matrox digisuite mjpeg. on premiere at 29.97 we projected the film(1st premiere Aug 1st) in rental theatre on a 9x12 rear projection screen with a digital projector 2400 luman resolution. The quality was very good . The theatre had a seating capacity of 500 people and the film quality was very clear and visible from each corner. How different and bigger would be the theatre screen ? If the quality was very good on a 9x12 screen from a DVD , Would it be almost good or very good on the theatre screen ? Is it really necessary to transfer to film ... I mean the cost and would it justify the cost ...or can it be projected from the dvd on a digital projector.? Thanks in advance for the response :) __________________ Kumar

September 11th, 2004, 03:47 PM	#472
Roger Van Royen Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 27	24p at night with no gain Just wondering if anyone here has any experience using the DVX100A at night without ramping up the gain. I plan to use 24p advanced and I know this camera gets really light thirsty in that mode. I'm making it even harder on myself by refusing to allow grain in my night shots, so using gain isn't an option. I'm curious what the footage will look like in terms of general environment outside well lit areas. Will it pick up anything, or just the street and car lights? I can't experiment because I don't have my camera yet, but I need to plan my lighting needs in advance. Any input would be appreciated, especially if it comes from direct experience with the DVX100.

June 23rd, 2004, 11:00 PM	#467
Stefan Scherperel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 209	Depends on what you want to do with your footage. Since you shot 24PS, your footage will edit best in 29.97 (NTSC DV template) and will also edit fine in 23.97 timeline. Vegas will figure everything else out for you. IF you are going to be using your footage, with footage from another camera, then use the NTSC DV template. If you want to make a 24p dvd, then use the 23.97 template.

June 24th, 2004, 11:16 AM	#468
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	With Vegas, it's really simple: if you want to edit the pure 24P frames, choose the NTSC 24P template (and make sure that in the preferences, you have the "allow pulldown removal" option checked). If you're just editing for videotape, you can use the NTSC DV template (in which case, you would want the "allow pulldown removal" option NOT checked).

September 11th, 2004, 04:05 PM	#473
Imran Zaidi Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,315	I have and depending on the particular nightscape in which you will be shooting, it won't be as bad as you think. Depending on the look you're going for, I think you'll actually be very pleased. I shot in a environment, downtown Orlando, that is littered with those sodium lights that essentially make everything king of amber-yellowish. Here and there are bars or clubs that have the occasional neon sign, and a building or two that seem to have daylight balanced lights. In such an environment it can be tricky to get a white balance that is universal, but again, it depends on what type of look you're going for. I decided to just use the default 3200k white balance, and was pleased with the results - and this is why... I turned down the color and the chroma level just a few notches. This does two things - it helps reduce the overall saturation of some of the really obnoxious amber streetlights, and at the same time, greatly reduces grain noise that can appear in low light around colored objects. And despite doing this, rather than distort or lessen the colors of human skin and such, it actually helped even out everything, despite the crazy mix of lighting temperatures. I would recommend that as soon as you do get the camera, that you run out with it and test in your environment, using a variety of different settings in the camera. Because every nightscape is different, this is the only way that you will be able to know for sure. But don't worry, the camera is very workable in such environments.

September 12th, 2004, 03:15 AM	#474
Roger Van Royen Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 27	That all sounds very encouraging. Were you filming strictly under available light or did you set up some studio lights? I was assuming I'd get a good image wherever I could concentrate artificial light, but wouldn't that cause everything surrounding the area to go pitch black? I've never been a big fan of the night scenes where you see a localized pool of light on the subject and pure blackness everywhere else, kind of claustrophobic and dull in my opinion. I actually prefer a well done day-for-night shot to that kind of "real" night. In fact, my night shots will be supplementing a lot of day-for-night footage. I love inky blue night scenes, doesn't bother me if they may not look totally real. Besides it's a comedy/horror flick anyway. There are just a few scenes where a lack of artificial light sources - street lights, porch lights, etc. would expose the day-for-night trick and make it look really stupid - TOO stupid, even for a horror/comedy. I'd like to have a fairly natural level of detail showing outside my lighted areas, but I have zero experience with night shooting, let alone with a DVX100A. Is this a realistically obtainable goal with about 1000 watts of studio lights? That's the maximum I want to mess with outdoors.

September 12th, 2004, 11:26 AM	#475
Imran Zaidi Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,315	I was shooting documentary style footage, with nothing but available light, in a downtown nightscape. In a scenario like that, while the footage was great for a doc piece, it may not be the right look for a narrative piece (depending on if you're going for an 'indie' look or a 'hollywood' look), and you will want to light faces and such somewhat with some well placed lighting. By 'indie' I don't mean poor quality - I just mean more natural while still maintaining good exposure and quality. It all depends on your environment and how much available light you will have. As far as surrounding areas going black - well that will only happen if you're using auto-exposure, which of course you won't want to do in a film. I would post in the lighting section of this forum to get some tips and tricks on lighting narrative pieces outdoors at night - I'm sure you'll get some good info on that. You're right about the day-for-night thing though - it can work when you're out away from city lights, but as soon as you're somewhere where there should be a street light or neon sign on, and it isn't, your day for night illusion is shot. Overall, I wouldn't worry about the camera's capabilities at this stage - I would get to work collecting information about shooting DV at night, and try to absorb as much as you can about lighting techniques you can use.

September 12th, 2004, 02:00 PM	#476
Roger Van Royen Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 27	Okay, sounds like the DVX100 can give me the look I want under the necessary conditions, which is what I was hoping to hear. My main concern is keeping grain out of my night footage and it looks like that isn't too lofty an ambition. Many thanks for the very helpful advice and input.

September 13th, 2004, 06:10 PM	#477
Daniel Hollister Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 128	TRY TRY TRY TRY to get some lights set up. i always have the problem with the 100A in low-light in 24PA. i mean, it's fairly good under certain low-light situations, but it really depends. i don't know how dark you're talking, but i know that i have problems all the time. i always bring lights with me and hook them up to a power inverter on my car, because the streetlights don't usually get me the same effect. i, like you, try to avoid using gain whenever necessary. it can be tough. so yeah, the 100A can be pretty resilient in low-light, like everyone here says, but i urge you to be prepared anyhow. plus it still looks better to have some soft light being reflected at the subject at night anyway.

September 14th, 2004, 02:23 PM	#478
Roger Van Royen Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 27	Hi, Daniel. How does the 100A do in evening conditions? I mean assuming it's not an overcast day and the streetlights are just coming on. I was driving around yesterday in one of my locations and it looked like some "evening-for-night" shots could work. Also, I've always planned on using my own lights with the camera in 24p advanced during night scenes. How little light can you get by with? I want to use anywhere from 250 to 1000 watts, but more than that would probably be prohibitive. Obviously I intend to block action so actors deliver their lines or perform important tasks only lighted areas. Originally all of my "night" footage was to be day-for-night, but I quickly realized I'd have to compromise and shoot a few real night scenes where you'd need to see all the various lights of suburbia in them. I don't mind if there's some underexposure outside lit areas, but what I'm concerned about is not getting any detail at all. I'm filming pretty much in standard suburban night, no big neon signs or things like that. Imran seems to think the 100A will do fine in this regard, but I'd like to hear your opinion on it too.

September 14th, 2004, 08:36 PM	#479
Roger Van Royen Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 27	Daniel, just to clarify my question about evening time - I meant filming at twilight WITHOUT any studio lights, as opposed to having them be a necessity in full night. How did does the 100A do in that situation?

September 15th, 2004, 02:54 AM	#480
Ozan Biron Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Vancouver, CANADA Posts: 137	here some low light shots i filmed from my DVX http://www.rotundus.tv/panasonicshoot.mpg random frame grabes frame grabs http://www.rotundus.tv/1.bmp http://www.rotundus.tv/11.bmp http://www.rotundus.tv/12.bmp http://www.rotundus.tv/13.bmp http://www.rotundus.tv/14.bmp http://www.rotundus.tv/15.bmp http://www.rotundus.tv/16.bmp http://www.rotundus.tv/3.bmp http://www.rotundus.tv/4.bmp http://www.rotundus.tv/5.bmp http://www.rotundus.tv/7.bmp http://www.rotundus.tv/8.bmp http://www.rotundus.tv/9.bmp __________________ www.ozan.ca