24p questions

Jeff Donald · October 5th, 2002, 02:26 PM

What is the vertical resolution of NTSC?

From the top of the screen to the bottom are 525 horizontal lines. In 1/60 of a second all the odd numbered (1, 3, 5, etc.) lines are drawn, then in the next 1/60 of a second all the even numbered lines (2, 4, 6, etc.). This is interlaced video. Each 1/60 is referred to as a field. Two fields make a frame, 1/30 of a second. hence 30 frames per second (actually 29.97, but that is another story).

Horizontal resolution is determined by many other factors depending on the format. Among the factors are bandwidth, lens quality, electrical components, tape quality etc.

I should also explain that the terms horizontal and vertical in this discussion are confusing. Vertical resolution is the horizontal lines and horizontal resolution is the vertical lines. The horizontal lines are counted vertically from top to bottom. Hence the term vertical resolution.

Jeff

Ryan Wachter · October 5th, 2002, 10:11 PM

Thank you, i think ive got it. Can someone now be so kind as to explain NTSC and HD to me....PLEASE

Keith Luken · October 6th, 2002, 09:18 AM

More infor than you ever wanted to know:

http://www.progressivescan.co.uk/index.html

http://rgb.com/Webpages/reftech/hiresconvert.html

http://scarlet.cs.nott.ac.uk/~tjb/pmm/pdf/mm6-02bw.pdf

http://bock.bushwick.com/hdtv_ppt/

Ryan Wachter · October 6th, 2002, 02:54 PM

beautiful! Thanks a lot!

guerrapato · October 6th, 2002, 03:40 PM

Can someone please shed some technical benefits, if any of this new camera. Should Canon users be worried about latest investment on a xl1s??

guerrapato · October 6th, 2002, 05:00 PM

Please explain if the 24p Panasonic will produce a superior noticeable image than the canon xl1s??

Ryan Wachter · October 6th, 2002, 05:31 PM

From what I was told, it creates a much noticed difference in that the panasonic give it a more convincing "film look"

Jeff Donald · October 6th, 2002, 05:41 PM

The replacement for the XL1s is in the works. It has been since the XL1s was introduced. Video equipment follows a sort of evolutionary path. Now and then something revolutionary comes along. But not too often. Unlike some manufactures, Canon is usually pretty tight lipped about their new products.

Jeff

guerrapato · October 6th, 2002, 05:45 PM

Will a PAL 25p in the Canon be notiv=ceably inferior then the Panasonic?

Jeff Donald · October 6th, 2002, 05:54 PM

It is really too early to say a great deal about the DVX100. Wait for a few reviews done with actual production cameras. Pre-release cameras are not always what the consumer gets. But for now the DVX100 will probably be the standard until the Sony or Canon make it to market.

Jeff

Frank Granovski · October 6th, 2002, 08:58 PM

The DVX is smaller and you can't change lenses. However, the resolution is higher and it shoots progressive scan instead of frame mode. They are different types of cams, although they share the same CCD size. Just pick one, depending which one tickles your fancy. But keep in mind that the XL1s is proven, the DVX is not (not yet anyway).

Bill Ravens · October 7th, 2002, 07:07 AM

As an old still image photographer, it constantly amazes me how the hype and legend gets perpetuated about 24fps video. One of the things never mentioned is the fact that 24fps requires a slower shutter speed. As a result, several factors are introduced.
1-the aperture settings are usually smaller than 60fps
2-the shutter speed is slower
3-because of the slower shutter speed, motion blur is a lot more prevalent

Motion blur is something film-makers are used to and work around. Fast pans become more difficult...in fact, fast pans tend to stutter. I, personally, don't like this weakness of slower shutter speeds. The romantically inclined can't live without it...go figure.

Jacques Mersereau · October 7th, 2002, 10:28 AM

You'll get a better image because:

a) Higher resolution 1280x720 pixels (vs. XL1s's 720x486)

b) True progressive frame. Canon XL1s frame mode is NOT true progressive.

c) Variable frame frate. You can (should be able to) shoot at 60FPS and slow it down the frame rate to 24 FPS (for slow motion) without the strobed look of most NLEs.

Ryan Wachter · October 13th, 2002, 11:23 AM

What do yo think? Is the 24p worth loosing the option to change lenses? This would have to do with someone who is looking to do shorts and features for mostly festivals and internet.

Stephen van Vuuren · October 13th, 2002, 11:28 AM

Without question for me. I'm working on my second short for festival circuit.

I sold my XL1 with 3X wide and 14X manual lens to get two of these.

The image is so much better than XL1 frame mode or XL1 deinterlaced in post. And wide and tele adaptors will arrive soon enough and won't affect the image near as much as the low res XL1 image does.

October 6th, 2002, 03:40 PM	#35
guerrapato New Boot Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 9	canon xl1s PAL vs new Panasonic 24p Can someone please shed some technical benefits, if any of this new camera. Should Canon users be worried about latest investment on a xl1s??

October 6th, 2002, 05:00 PM	#36
guerrapato New Boot Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 9	how does a PAL xl1s interlaced stand? Please explain if the 24p Panasonic will produce a superior noticeable image than the canon xl1s??

October 6th, 2002, 05:45 PM	#39
guerrapato New Boot Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 9	would you call it a better camera though?? Will a PAL 25p in the Canon be notiv=ceably inferior then the Panasonic?

October 7th, 2002, 10:28 AM	#43
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	You'll get a better image because: a) Higher resolution 1280x720 pixels (vs. XL1s's 720x486) b) True progressive frame. Canon XL1s frame mode is NOT true progressive. c) Variable frame frate. You can (should be able to) shoot at 60FPS and slow it down the frame rate to 24 FPS (for slow motion) without the strobed look of most NLEs. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

October 13th, 2002, 11:23 AM	#44
Ryan Wachter Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 164	interchangable lens vs 24p What do yo think? Is the 24p worth loosing the option to change lenses? This would have to do with someone who is looking to do shorts and features for mostly festivals and internet.

October 5th, 2002, 02:26 PM	#31
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	What is the vertical resolution of NTSC? From the top of the screen to the bottom are 525 horizontal lines. In 1/60 of a second all the odd numbered (1, 3, 5, etc.) lines are drawn, then in the next 1/60 of a second all the even numbered lines (2, 4, 6, etc.). This is interlaced video. Each 1/60 is referred to as a field. Two fields make a frame, 1/30 of a second. hence 30 frames per second (actually 29.97, but that is another story). Horizontal resolution is determined by many other factors depending on the format. Among the factors are bandwidth, lens quality, electrical components, tape quality etc. I should also explain that the terms horizontal and vertical in this discussion are confusing. Vertical resolution is the horizontal lines and horizontal resolution is the vertical lines. The horizontal lines are counted vertically from top to bottom. Hence the term vertical resolution. Jeff

October 5th, 2002, 10:11 PM	#32
Ryan Wachter Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 164	Thank you, i think ive got it. Can someone now be so kind as to explain NTSC and HD to me....PLEASE

October 6th, 2002, 09:18 AM	#33
Keith Luken Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 200	More infor than you ever wanted to know: http://www.progressivescan.co.uk/index.html http://rgb.com/Webpages/reftech/hiresconvert.html http://scarlet.cs.nott.ac.uk/~tjb/pmm/pdf/mm6-02bw.pdf http://bock.bushwick.com/hdtv_ppt/

October 6th, 2002, 02:54 PM	#34
Ryan Wachter Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 164	beautiful! Thanks a lot!

October 6th, 2002, 05:31 PM	#37
Ryan Wachter Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 164	From what I was told, it creates a much noticed difference in that the panasonic give it a more convincing "film look"

October 6th, 2002, 05:41 PM	#38
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	The replacement for the XL1s is in the works. It has been since the XL1s was introduced. Video equipment follows a sort of evolutionary path. Now and then something revolutionary comes along. But not too often. Unlike some manufactures, Canon is usually pretty tight lipped about their new products. Jeff

October 6th, 2002, 05:54 PM	#40
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	It is really too early to say a great deal about the DVX100. Wait for a few reviews done with actual production cameras. Pre-release cameras are not always what the consumer gets. But for now the DVX100 will probably be the standard until the Sony or Canon make it to market. Jeff

October 6th, 2002, 08:58 PM	#41
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	The DVX is smaller and you can't change lenses. However, the resolution is higher and it shoots progressive scan instead of frame mode. They are different types of cams, although they share the same CCD size. Just pick one, depending which one tickles your fancy. But keep in mind that the XL1s is proven, the DVX is not (not yet anyway).

October 7th, 2002, 07:07 AM	#42
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	As an old still image photographer, it constantly amazes me how the hype and legend gets perpetuated about 24fps video. One of the things never mentioned is the fact that 24fps requires a slower shutter speed. As a result, several factors are introduced. 1-the aperture settings are usually smaller than 60fps 2-the shutter speed is slower 3-because of the slower shutter speed, motion blur is a lot more prevalent Motion blur is something film-makers are used to and work around. Fast pans become more difficult...in fact, fast pans tend to stutter. I, personally, don't like this weakness of slower shutter speeds. The romantically inclined can't live without it...go figure.

October 13th, 2002, 11:28 AM	#45
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Without question for me. I'm working on my second short for festival circuit. I sold my XL1 with 3X wide and 14X manual lens to get two of these. The image is so much better than XL1 frame mode or XL1 deinterlaced in post. And wide and tele adaptors will arrive soon enough and won't affect the image near as much as the low res XL1 image does. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com