low light versus pd150

Barry Green · July 22nd, 2003, 08:31 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : Andre:

At 0db gain in interlaced vs a PD150, I agree, that would reveal results worth looking at.-->>>

In the link I posted, there is a comparison picture between the two cameras at 0db gain.

Stephen van Vuuren · July 22nd, 2003, 08:49 PM

Beale's site has good stuff on it, but it's at 1/48th shutter. I find you can get good results at 1/24 shutter (my low lights here are at 1/24th) and most very low light shots don't need higher shutter speeds.

So that shot would look quite different at 1/24th.

Barry Green · July 22nd, 2003, 11:45 PM

True, but if you start dropping shutter speeds, the VX2000 can go down to 1/4 or slower... and that will give you a dramatically brighter picture! So, the only true apples to apples comparison is DVX interlaced at 1/60th, vs. VX2000 interlaced at 1/60th. Comparing 24P vs. the VX2000 is pointless.

Stephen van Vuuren · July 23rd, 2003, 08:51 AM

I'm not sure about the VX2000/PD150, but on my old XL-1, "slow shutter speeds" were a digital effect. 1/60th and faster speeds were on one menu and produced a "natural" shutter speed, i.e. without stuttering/strobing.

However, the slower speeds was under the digital effects menu and while they worked, the resulting image was extremely akward and only usable on still shots.

I find no such effect with the 1/24th speed on the Panasonic, just increased motion blur.

How do the slow shutter speeds work on the Sony cams?

Barry Green · July 23rd, 2003, 12:59 PM

Using the slower shutter speeds on the PD150/VX2000 involves dropping fields, and posterizing time. Shooting at 1/4 means you'll get four distinct images per second, so it sounds similar to what you experienced on the Canon. Choosing 1/30th provides a filmish blur to the image, and 30fps motion, at the expense of losing half your vertical resolution.

Andre De Clercq · July 23rd, 2003, 02:31 PM

Stephen, if you go for 1/24 (near 100% optical dutycycle) are you then still trying to get "film look". Not only extra motion blur but also (reduced) temporal aliasing effects which film look supporters like so much (strobing, shakiness...)will be reduced.

Stephen van Vuuren · July 23rd, 2003, 03:44 PM

Andre:

Not sure that I understand your question. 1/24 gives more motion blur, but if you follow film guidelines for panning, motion, footage has looked fine for me.

Barry:

Thanks for the info. I would officially declare the DVX100 the 0db low-light champion of the world (insert echo, delay) with it's 1/24th shutter speed.

Andre De Clercq · July 24th, 2003, 06:13 AM

Agree Stephen, but as far as i can follow the "film look" believers, they exactly want (need) the reduced motion blur, strobing,...just like it is visible in real film with its 1/48sec (50% dutycycle) shutter properties.

Stephen van Vuuren · July 24th, 2003, 08:08 AM

That would be for zealots only. Having started shooting film, mostly super 8mm and some 16mm, I did use other shutter speeds at times other than 1/48 if the cam offered them.

It looks different and different cams used different shutters but the motion blur comes more from 24fps than shutter speed. 60 fields a second gives a very different temporal feel to motion and that why I think frame rate is the #1 issue with film look, shutter speed would be well down the list.

July 22nd, 2003, 08:49 PM	#17
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Beale's site has good stuff on it, but it's at 1/48th shutter. I find you can get good results at 1/24 shutter (my low lights here are at 1/24th) and most very low light shots don't need higher shutter speeds. So that shot would look quite different at 1/24th. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

July 23rd, 2003, 08:51 AM	#19
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	I'm not sure about the VX2000/PD150, but on my old XL-1, "slow shutter speeds" were a digital effect. 1/60th and faster speeds were on one menu and produced a "natural" shutter speed, i.e. without stuttering/strobing. However, the slower speeds was under the digital effects menu and while they worked, the resulting image was extremely akward and only usable on still shots. I find no such effect with the 1/24th speed on the Panasonic, just increased motion blur. How do the slow shutter speeds work on the Sony cams? __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

July 23rd, 2003, 03:44 PM	#22
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Andre: Not sure that I understand your question. 1/24 gives more motion blur, but if you follow film guidelines for panning, motion, footage has looked fine for me. Barry: Thanks for the info. I would officially declare the DVX100 the 0db low-light champion of the world (insert echo, delay) with it's 1/24th shutter speed. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

July 24th, 2003, 08:08 AM	#24
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	That would be for zealots only. Having started shooting film, mostly super 8mm and some 16mm, I did use other shutter speeds at times other than 1/48 if the cam offered them. It looks different and different cams used different shutters but the motion blur comes more from 24fps than shutter speed. 60 fields a second gives a very different temporal feel to motion and that why I think frame rate is the #1 issue with film look, shutter speed would be well down the list. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

July 22nd, 2003, 08:31 PM	#16
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : Andre: At 0db gain in interlaced vs a PD150, I agree, that would reveal results worth looking at.-->>> In the link I posted, there is a comparison picture between the two cameras at 0db gain.

July 22nd, 2003, 11:45 PM	#18
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	True, but if you start dropping shutter speeds, the VX2000 can go down to 1/4 or slower... and that will give you a dramatically brighter picture! So, the only true apples to apples comparison is DVX interlaced at 1/60th, vs. VX2000 interlaced at 1/60th. Comparing 24P vs. the VX2000 is pointless.

July 23rd, 2003, 12:59 PM	#20
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Using the slower shutter speeds on the PD150/VX2000 involves dropping fields, and posterizing time. Shooting at 1/4 means you'll get four distinct images per second, so it sounds similar to what you experienced on the Canon. Choosing 1/30th provides a filmish blur to the image, and 30fps motion, at the expense of losing half your vertical resolution.

July 23rd, 2003, 02:31 PM	#21
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	Stephen, if you go for 1/24 (near 100% optical dutycycle) are you then still trying to get "film look". Not only extra motion blur but also (reduced) temporal aliasing effects which film look supporters like so much (strobing, shakiness...)will be reduced.

July 24th, 2003, 06:13 AM	#23
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	Agree Stephen, but as far as i can follow the "film look" believers, they exactly want (need) the reduced motion blur, strobing,...just like it is visible in real film with its 1/48sec (50% dutycycle) shutter properties.