24p Mini DV on the way!

[Federico Martini]

Jan Crittenden would be great to have here. I remember very valuable discussions at the DVcentral.org list, also with Ross "updated alias" Jones , in the beginning days of DV.

I would like to know if the resolution is better than the XL1 and if there are different NTSC and PAL models or you can also choose that in one same model.

[Mark Ross]

"other then going to film there is very little that you can do with true 24fps ( the 24p mini ) in a NTSC world."

I think the important thing to remember is the significance of the way the motion will look when captured at 24 individual pictures per second. Yes, you will have to get it back to 30i for NTSC viewing but the fact that it was captured at the 24p is what's important and will change the look into something distinct from 60 fields of interlaced video, and technically (and probably perceptibly) different from even 30p video, i.e. the XL-1.

One thing that nobody has brought up is that if the Pana records to tape with a 3:2 pulldown then issues will arise when editing. One of the clear cut advantages of progessive scan is that each frame is indeed a complete frame. If you have ever tried to work with 24f on NTSC in a non linear editor you will will find that every 3rd frame or so is actually repeated and often 2 frames will be interlaced. This causes issues that I wouldn't even want to deal with. While 24p on the pana is exciting this would be a serious issue. Especially for editing where adding CG elements and blue screens are involved. Anyone else thinking about this issue?

[Casey Visco]

3:2 Pulldown essentially takes 4 frames (at 24fps) and converts these to 5 frames (at 30fps)...by making two split frames consisting of a field each from the previous and next frames in the order.

for example four frames from a 24p clip:

[ 1 ] [ 2 ] [ 3 ] [ 4 ]

become the following when converted to 30fps interlaced NTSC:

Field 1: [ 1 ] [ 2 ] [ 2 ] [ 3 ] [ 4 ]
Field 2: [ 1 ] [ 2 ] [ 3 ] [ 4 ] [ 4 ]

When doing visual effects work it is necessary to remove the 3:2 pulldown to get back to the original 24fps material to ensure succesful matte pulls and keys, etc. Failure to remove the pulldown can show some artifacting as it goes through the editing stage. When all editing/effects work is completed, then you typically reinsert the 3:2 pulldown to create an NTSC master.

I primarily work in discreet combustion, which makes 3:2 removal very easy, i'm not sure however if After Effects (or premiere for that matter) do this.

I am aware that the pulldown can be removed. However Just the plain fact that this may have to be done seems like an inconvenience. At least currently with the frame mode on my XL1 all of the video on my PC is native full frame and no pulldown has to be done. I was hoping the 24p on the pana would just native have 24 full frames when captured.

I

[Rob Lohman]

The problem here I think is the DV standard and editing
applications. They don't support 24 fps yet (at least not in
native DV -> if that is possible at all). One other thing that
I thought of yesterday is why there isn't any information
in the DV stream about:

- shutter speed used for the current frame
- aperture
- gain level

etc... Would be handy to have such information available
at all times during editing and such... oh well

[Bill Ravens]

Interesting post Rob. I've been playing with a powerful audio processing software(noise reduction, compression, equalization) called Izotope Ozone. This software takes an FFT snapshot of a soundtrack and saves it for future comparison to a current soundrack. It would be a terrific thing if I could make a record of my exposures, which ones worked and which ones didn't....save them to a file or buffer, and do some sort of histogram comparison with current settings. The info is on the DV tape...it should be accessible, yes?

[Casey Visco]

It would be so much easier if this was accesible on the tape itself, as for a while i've been writing down the key bits of information on an insert slate and marking every shot. Now that's fine if you have the time to do this for EVERY shot...but for most of the projects i work on we have to move very very quickly and this can be a tough thing to do especially since the dv crew tends to be stripped way down. It does however save a lot of confusion in the editing stage...you have a few frames of all the information pertinent to that particular shot.

So, if not encoded in some way, a "digital slate" in the camera that automatically records a few frames with this information on it would be useful. I think the new Arri 35mm cameras have a feature that does this.

[Rob Lohman]

Bill... I doubt this information is on the tape. I've never heard
anything about this. Does anyone know the specs? If it is on
the tape it should be possible to get to it, that might require
to write your own software though. Since I am a software
architect in my work, I might be able to write such a thing. Again,
the questions is: is the information there, and if so, how can
we access it.

Again, I highly doubt that information is on the tape..... But
then again, the original recording date is also on the tape
and no-one is using that

[Bill Ravens]

Part of the DV standard reserves a place in the data stream for time, date, & exposure info. The way to see this on an XL1s is only thru the "DATA" button on the remote control. I can acess this data even on my Sony DSR-20 playback deck. Beleive me, it's there, along with the time and date.

[Rob Lohman]

Bill... you wouldn't happen to have any exact specification on
this, now would you?

[Bill Ravens]

Rob...

sorry, I don't . Let me research it and I'll get back to you.

Hi, I'm new so forgive me in advance for any errors.
IMHO, it's definetly THE STORY!

"Post Effects" is a cutting edge studio here in Chicago that shoots and edits HD. I've seen footage shot with HD (24p) lined up right next to Film. If you don't notice the lack of grain, you really don't know the difference. The reason they have comparisons like this is because there are so many directors and clients that think "The Film Look" is the only way to go.
It's the same with editing suites. While I have a Final Cut Pro edit system at home, nobody will pay $300 an hour unless they hear the word AVID. Of course I could do the same edits at home faster and possibly more creatively than with an older AVID system (look at the JP 3 trailer done by 'Trailer Park') and nobody would know the difference.

Granted that film production values (as with HD values) will survive a dub to VHS or DVD, at the end of the day a great story shot on Pixelvision will be better received than a poor story shot on film.

- Chip

[Ken Tanaka]

Interesting info. For those interested in further info, Post Effects' web site is at:

http://www.posteffects.com/