NV-GS400 Frame Rate?

Frank Granovski · April 7th, 2006, 04:19 PM

The GS400 has frame mode - 30fps. this should not be blurry if a tripod is used.

Jon Fairhurst · August 5th, 2006, 04:16 AM

Nothing like reviving an old thread...

QUESTION: Does the GS500 do progressive? It's not 100% clear from the stuff I've read. I know what 30P means. I'm not sure what "Procinema Mode" means.

Thanks in advance...

Guy Bruner · August 5th, 2006, 01:55 PM

The GS500 does frame mode, which outputs as progressive, but makes the frame from a combination of the two interlaced fields from the CCD. So, it does not have the vertical resolution of progressive. Procinema mode is a combination of frame mode and picture adjustments (cine-gamma) to make the video look more like film.

Jon Fairhurst · August 5th, 2006, 08:14 PM

Guy,

My son and I took a look at a GS500 at a local Best Buy and have decided to buy one - but not at the $950 that BB is asking. No question that it was the best camera on the floor - including the little Sony HDV camera. That cam may be HD, but its automatic adjustments are really aggressive, and it lacks the control to override them well. The GS500 felt "right" (great optical stabilization, for instance), and it offers just enough manual control to make it workable.

Regarding the scanning...

In interlace at time A the sensor scans the odd lines, they go over the wire, and they end up on the odd lines of the TV. At time B the even lines are scanned, delivered and displayed.

In true 30P the sensor would scan all of the lines at roughly the same time. To work within the constraints of DV on 1394, the odd lines are delivered, and then the even lines are delivered, having been stored in memory. The TV displays the odd lines, then the even lines, and no motion "tearing" would occur. At time C the process starts all over again.

Looking at the picture on the LCD viewer, in the Pro Cinema mode we get a stuttering or strobing of motion, as one would expect in 30P. I wasn't able to see the full res picture on a monitor, so I'm not sure if they were just line doubling, or what.

The poor man's way to do this would be to sample the odd lines at time A and output them, and then output them again at time B, never sampling the even lines.

The next step up would do motion detection. At time B the output would be the even lines in the case of no motion, but would be the odd lines (or an average of the odd lines to avoid vertical offset) in areas of motion.

So these are three possibilities:

a) True 30P with all pixels being sampled at once
b) Poor man's 30P with only half of the lines ever sampled, or
c) The compromise of progressive where there is no motion, and half resolution in motion areas. This is about as good as you can do, if you can't get the whole image out of the CCD in one swell foop.

We will buy the camera regardless, but it will be nice to know what we're getting ourselves into.

(BTW, our plan is to get the GS500 now and to save our money for the HVX-200a, whenever that may come out. Hopefully it will get a real HD sensor, rather than the 576 line gizmo. We considered the DVX100b, but the lack of an integrated anamorphic 16:9 lense killed the deal.)

Guy Bruner · August 6th, 2006, 06:28 AM

Here is an old link that has been posted here many times on how frame mode differs from progressive. It was written by Steve Mullen.

If the lack of an integrated anamorphic lens killed the DVX for you, then that lack has probably killed every other camera because I don't know of a single one that has one. There is a difference in shooting in anamorphic 16:9 and having an anamorphic lens. The DVX shoots anamorphic 16:9 (or sometimes called 'squeeze mode').

Jon Fairhurst · August 7th, 2006, 08:54 PM

Thanks Guy! That link 'splains it all. Perfect.

Regarding the anamorphic thing, we were considering stretching the budget up to the $3k range expecting to get 24p true widescreen. (The marketing of the widescreen viewfinder led my son to think it was true wide.) When we learend that it did less than we expected, it let the air out of the balloon.

The next step up would be the XL2, which has a 16x9 sensor and doesn't need an anamorphic lens, but the price inches closer to HVX territory...

Whatever. The GS500 has everything we really need and enough of what we want at a great price. It's a keeper. The plan is to save for the HVX, and hope that there will be an improved version with cheaper P2 cards by then. The GS500 can still be useful as a "behind the scenes" camera. Had we gone with the DVX (or XL2), we would likely need to sell it to upgrade to the HVX.

Anyway, we should receive the camera from Egghead tomorrow, or the next day. Can't wait!

Thanks again for the link.

Jon Fairhurst · August 9th, 2006, 10:22 PM

The GS500 came in today.

Quick review: The picture looks much better than any consumer camcorder that I've used before by a long shot. The camera has very little thermal (moving) noise. It mainly suffers from fixed noise. It's almost invisible - until something moves.

Lots of light helps minimize, but not fully remove the fixed noise, which is small and is almost color free. Much nicer than the typical red/blue noise that we watched all those years with VHS tapes.

The Pro-Cinema mode is quite nice. We lose less resolution than I expected. The resolution is really all we need for our 270x480 web videos.

One cool thing - connect the camera to Vegas, and it automatically recognizes the source to be 16x9 squish and 30p. Truly plug and play, er, capture.

I wouldn't recommend this little cam to anybody freelancing. You really need something bigger to impress the client. But if you want a stealthy camera, or want something inexpensive as a stop-gap before moving up to a pro-sumer cam, this is a nice little unit.

August 5th, 2006, 04:16 AM	#17
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Nothing like reviving an old thread... QUESTION: Does the GS500 do progressive? It's not 100% clear from the stuff I've read. I know what 30P means. I'm not sure what "Procinema Mode" means. Thanks in advance... __________________ Jon Fairhurst

August 5th, 2006, 08:14 PM	#19
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Guy, My son and I took a look at a GS500 at a local Best Buy and have decided to buy one - but not at the $950 that BB is asking. No question that it was the best camera on the floor - including the little Sony HDV camera. That cam may be HD, but its automatic adjustments are really aggressive, and it lacks the control to override them well. The GS500 felt "right" (great optical stabilization, for instance), and it offers just enough manual control to make it workable. Regarding the scanning... In interlace at time A the sensor scans the odd lines, they go over the wire, and they end up on the odd lines of the TV. At time B the even lines are scanned, delivered and displayed. In true 30P the sensor would scan all of the lines at roughly the same time. To work within the constraints of DV on 1394, the odd lines are delivered, and then the even lines are delivered, having been stored in memory. The TV displays the odd lines, then the even lines, and no motion "tearing" would occur. At time C the process starts all over again. Looking at the picture on the LCD viewer, in the Pro Cinema mode we get a stuttering or strobing of motion, as one would expect in 30P. I wasn't able to see the full res picture on a monitor, so I'm not sure if they were just line doubling, or what. The poor man's way to do this would be to sample the odd lines at time A and output them, and then output them again at time B, never sampling the even lines. The next step up would do motion detection. At time B the output would be the even lines in the case of no motion, but would be the odd lines (or an average of the odd lines to avoid vertical offset) in areas of motion. So these are three possibilities: a) True 30P with all pixels being sampled at once b) Poor man's 30P with only half of the lines ever sampled, or c) The compromise of progressive where there is no motion, and half resolution in motion areas. This is about as good as you can do, if you can't get the whole image out of the CCD in one swell foop. We will buy the camera regardless, but it will be nice to know what we're getting ourselves into. (BTW, our plan is to get the GS500 now and to save our money for the HVX-200a, whenever that may come out. Hopefully it will get a real HD sensor, rather than the 576 line gizmo. We considered the DVX100b, but the lack of an integrated anamorphic 16:9 lense killed the deal.) __________________ Jon Fairhurst

August 7th, 2006, 08:54 PM	#21
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Thanks Guy! That link 'splains it all. Perfect. Regarding the anamorphic thing, we were considering stretching the budget up to the $3k range expecting to get 24p true widescreen. (The marketing of the widescreen viewfinder led my son to think it was true wide.) When we learend that it did less than we expected, it let the air out of the balloon. The next step up would be the XL2, which has a 16x9 sensor and doesn't need an anamorphic lens, but the price inches closer to HVX territory... Whatever. The GS500 has everything we really need and enough of what we want at a great price. It's a keeper. The plan is to save for the HVX, and hope that there will be an improved version with cheaper P2 cards by then. The GS500 can still be useful as a "behind the scenes" camera. Had we gone with the DVX (or XL2), we would likely need to sell it to upgrade to the HVX. Anyway, we should receive the camera from Egghead tomorrow, or the next day. Can't wait! Thanks again for the link. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

August 9th, 2006, 10:22 PM	#22
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	The GS500 came in today. Quick review: The picture looks much better than any consumer camcorder that I've used before by a long shot. The camera has very little thermal (moving) noise. It mainly suffers from fixed noise. It's almost invisible - until something moves. Lots of light helps minimize, but not fully remove the fixed noise, which is small and is almost color free. Much nicer than the typical red/blue noise that we watched all those years with VHS tapes. The Pro-Cinema mode is quite nice. We lose less resolution than I expected. The resolution is really all we need for our 270x480 web videos. One cool thing - connect the camera to Vegas, and it automatically recognizes the source to be 16x9 squish and 30p. Truly plug and play, er, capture. I wouldn't recommend this little cam to anybody freelancing. You really need something bigger to impress the client. But if you want a stealthy camera, or want something inexpensive as a stop-gap before moving up to a pro-sumer cam, this is a nice little unit. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

April 7th, 2006, 04:19 PM	#16
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	The GS400 has frame mode - 30fps. this should not be blurry if a tripod is used.

August 5th, 2006, 01:55 PM	#18
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	The GS500 does frame mode, which outputs as progressive, but makes the frame from a combination of the two interlaced fields from the CCD. So, it does not have the vertical resolution of progressive. Procinema mode is a combination of frame mode and picture adjustments (cine-gamma) to make the video look more like film.

August 6th, 2006, 06:28 AM	#20
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	Here is an old link that has been posted here many times on how frame mode differs from progressive. It was written by Steve Mullen. If the lack of an integrated anamorphic lens killed the DVX for you, then that lack has probably killed every other camera because I don't know of a single one that has one. There is a difference in shooting in anamorphic 16:9 and having an anamorphic lens. The DVX shoots anamorphic 16:9 (or sometimes called 'squeeze mode').