GS400 Has 30P

Guy Bruner · July 6th, 2004, 01:31 PM

Well, I have an email in to Panasonic for clarification on the 30P. However, it is possible that they made changes to the firmware but didn't change the manual. Sorta like when they put optical image stabilization on the DV953 but didn't change the menus which say EIS. From a functional point of view 30P is frame mode so a consumer wouldn't know the difference. In fact, someone will want to measure resolution for it anyway.

Tommy Haupfear · July 6th, 2004, 02:03 PM

Quote:

However, it is possible that they made changes to the firmware but didn't change the manual.

I thought progressive scan required progressive scan CCDs?

Let us know what they say.

Michael Struthers · July 6th, 2004, 03:42 PM

Working in post with footage my gs100, it did seem like progressive frame footage to me.

Perhaps Panny is misusing the term "frame mode". I find it hard to believe a company identified with their progressive video mode is trying to pass off a faux 30p mode.

As for the diff between 30p and 24p to the average user, it is indecipherable. Video types can see 30p looks just a tad more "video", but it's much better than 24p for pans or any quick camera movement.

The only downside to 30p is that transferring out to film is much more difficult than transferring out from 24p.

But who's going to shoot a feature with this cam?

Frank Granovski · July 6th, 2004, 04:36 PM

>>>But who's going to shoot a feature with this cam?<<<

I'm sure that it can be done, and easily. All you'd need is the other gear (lighting, audio stuff, monitor etc), script and actors. :-))

Guy Bruner · July 6th, 2004, 06:03 PM

Tommy,
AFAIK all CCDs are progressive. It is what the firmware does with the image from that point that make a difference. The CCD data is read into buffers and manipulated there. Your reference to Steve Mullen's article explains it pretty well. If the GS400 has 30P, then the 30P image will be less light sensitive than in frame mode. That will mean poorer low light performance in that mode.

Tommy Haupfear · July 6th, 2004, 07:20 PM

GS400 with progressive scan but the DVC30 with frame mode?

Come on guys don't start a progressive scan conspiracy! :)

Its like buying a car and finding out it has a V8 under the hood while advertisements and even the car manual stated it has a V6. Its not logical for a company to neglect a popular buzzword like Progressive Scan when you see it smeared all over the front of $50 DVD players with inadequate 27MHz DACs (see also Bluetooth).

Tommy Haupfear · July 6th, 2004, 07:22 PM

Thanks for the info Guy!

Allan Rejoso · July 6th, 2004, 07:35 PM

Then how come spec sheets are very specific (well at least I'm referring to Japanese spec sheets) that a certain CCD is interlaced type or progressive scan type.

In my observation, Pany's frame mode per se looks brighter than normal (interlaced) mode whether it be under 4:3 or widescreen. What makes procinema look dimmer is the cinelike-gamma. As far as my eyes can distinguish, the only difference between Pany's frame mode and procinema is the color saturation. The jerky motion and resolution/clarity appear to be the same. But of course, I don't have a resolution meter to verify that.

The DVX100 has progressive scan CCD right? What about DVC30? I remember the latter has interlaced CCD with frame mode? Well, somebody please correct me if I am wrong.

Well, you're right, I will never be able to distinguish between frame mode and progressive scan mode anyway. In the first place, I'm not even sure if I had actually seen a progressive scan footage :-)).

Having said that, how do you know if a footage or frame grab is frame mode or progressive scan mode by simple looking at it?

Pany's older catalogues define procinema as 30 frames per second Progressive shooting. The latest one (July 2004) containing the GS400, simply states that procinema is 30 frames per second shooting. Oh well. An interesting feature in any case :-))

Guy Bruner · July 6th, 2004, 07:40 PM

Whether progressive or frame mode, the difference is in the resolution. I suppose the only way to tell is to measure the vertical resolution. Frame mode on a DV953 produces 290 vertical lines of resolution. Max is 360 lines, according to Steve Mullen. Ah, that is in 16:9 mode.

Allan Rejoso · July 6th, 2004, 07:52 PM

What would be the expected vertical resolution if it is progressive scan? 500+???

Tavis Shaver · July 6th, 2004, 08:16 PM

You think that there'd be any way to flash the gs100's menus with a dump from the gs400's?

Tommy Haupfear · July 6th, 2004, 08:24 PM

It will be interesting to see how many lines the GS400 has in its 16:9 mode. The GS100 had 370 but also had a 1.04x vertical zoom. Indications appear that the GS400 has no vertical zoom or a very micro amount.

Ignacio Rodriguez · July 6th, 2004, 10:06 PM

> What would be the expected vertical resolution if it is
> progressive scan? 500+???

I think when capturing a non-moving object (like a resolution chart) the resolution of interlaced, frame mode or progressive scan should be the same. The differences appear with moving images.

Boyd Ostroff · July 7th, 2004, 04:55 AM

Maybe I'm missing something, but how could it be over 500 when there are only 480 vertical lines?

From what I've read Ignacio, on a true progressive scan camera like the DVX-100a the vertical resolution is much higher, approaching the vertical limit of 480. I believe that this issue has to do with vertical blending that is intentionally introduced into the image for interlaced video (and presumably for frame mode also, which evidently has even less vertical res).

Picture a thin horizontal line in an image that's only one pixel tall. In this case the line would only appear in every other interlaced field. This would cause the line to flicker on and off. The cameras are designed to prevent this by averaging lines from the odd and even fields. From what I've read this limits the vertical res of our prosumer cameras to about 360 lines, and tests I've done would seem to confirm this.

Guy Bruner · July 7th, 2004, 05:58 AM

Well, CCDs in video cameras are interesting subjects. There are several different designs and methods of outputting the video. Thought I would post some references and you can noodle on them.

Progressive: What You Need to Know
What is Progressive Scan
Sony Semiconductor
Choosing a CCD
Panasonic CCDs (Shows the relationship of the CCD to other parts of the camera system.)

July 6th, 2004, 03:42 PM	#18
Michael Struthers Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: SF, Ca Posts: 421	Working in post with footage my gs100, it did seem like progressive frame footage to me. Perhaps Panny is misusing the term "frame mode". I find it hard to believe a company identified with their progressive video mode is trying to pass off a faux 30p mode. As for the diff between 30p and 24p to the average user, it is indecipherable. Video types can see 30p looks just a tad more "video", but it's much better than 24p for pans or any quick camera movement. The only downside to 30p is that transferring out to film is much more difficult than transferring out from 24p. But who's going to shoot a feature with this cam? __________________ Michael Struthers www.buzzdigital.com

July 6th, 2004, 10:06 PM	#28
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	> What would be the expected vertical resolution if it is > progressive scan? 500+??? I think when capturing a non-moving object (like a resolution chart) the resolution of interlaced, frame mode or progressive scan should be the same. The differences appear with moving images. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

July 6th, 2004, 01:31 PM	#16
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	Well, I have an email in to Panasonic for clarification on the 30P. However, it is possible that they made changes to the firmware but didn't change the manual. Sorta like when they put optical image stabilization on the DV953 but didn't change the menus which say EIS. From a functional point of view 30P is frame mode so a consumer wouldn't know the difference. In fact, someone will want to measure resolution for it anyway.

July 6th, 2004, 04:36 PM	#19
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	>>>But who's going to shoot a feature with this cam?<<< I'm sure that it can be done, and easily. All you'd need is the other gear (lighting, audio stuff, monitor etc), script and actors. :-))

July 6th, 2004, 06:03 PM	#20
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	Tommy, AFAIK all CCDs are progressive. It is what the firmware does with the image from that point that make a difference. The CCD data is read into buffers and manipulated there. Your reference to Steve Mullen's article explains it pretty well. If the GS400 has 30P, then the 30P image will be less light sensitive than in frame mode. That will mean poorer low light performance in that mode.

July 6th, 2004, 07:20 PM	#21
Tommy Haupfear Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,415	GS400 with progressive scan but the DVC30 with frame mode? Come on guys don't start a progressive scan conspiracy! :) Its like buying a car and finding out it has a V8 under the hood while advertisements and even the car manual stated it has a V6. Its not logical for a company to neglect a popular buzzword like Progressive Scan when you see it smeared all over the front of $50 DVD players with inadequate 27MHz DACs (see also Bluetooth).

July 6th, 2004, 07:22 PM	#22
Tommy Haupfear Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,415	Thanks for the info Guy!

July 6th, 2004, 07:35 PM	#23
Allan Rejoso Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 569	Then how come spec sheets are very specific (well at least I'm referring to Japanese spec sheets) that a certain CCD is interlaced type or progressive scan type. In my observation, Pany's frame mode per se looks brighter than normal (interlaced) mode whether it be under 4:3 or widescreen. What makes procinema look dimmer is the cinelike-gamma. As far as my eyes can distinguish, the only difference between Pany's frame mode and procinema is the color saturation. The jerky motion and resolution/clarity appear to be the same. But of course, I don't have a resolution meter to verify that. The DVX100 has progressive scan CCD right? What about DVC30? I remember the latter has interlaced CCD with frame mode? Well, somebody please correct me if I am wrong. Well, you're right, I will never be able to distinguish between frame mode and progressive scan mode anyway. In the first place, I'm not even sure if I had actually seen a progressive scan footage :-)). Having said that, how do you know if a footage or frame grab is frame mode or progressive scan mode by simple looking at it? Pany's older catalogues define procinema as 30 frames per second Progressive shooting. The latest one (July 2004) containing the GS400, simply states that procinema is 30 frames per second shooting. Oh well. An interesting feature in any case :-))

July 6th, 2004, 07:40 PM	#24
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	Whether progressive or frame mode, the difference is in the resolution. I suppose the only way to tell is to measure the vertical resolution. Frame mode on a DV953 produces 290 vertical lines of resolution. Max is 360 lines, according to Steve Mullen. Ah, that is in 16:9 mode.

July 6th, 2004, 07:52 PM	#25
Allan Rejoso Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 569	What would be the expected vertical resolution if it is progressive scan? 500+???

July 6th, 2004, 08:16 PM	#26
Tavis Shaver Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC. Canada Posts: 209	You think that there'd be any way to flash the gs100's menus with a dump from the gs400's?

July 6th, 2004, 08:24 PM	#27
Tommy Haupfear Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,415	It will be interesting to see how many lines the GS400 has in its 16:9 mode. The GS100 had 370 but also had a 1.04x vertical zoom. Indications appear that the GS400 has no vertical zoom or a very micro amount.

July 7th, 2004, 04:55 AM	#29
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Maybe I'm missing something, but how could it be over 500 when there are only 480 vertical lines? From what I've read Ignacio, on a true progressive scan camera like the DVX-100a the vertical resolution is much higher, approaching the vertical limit of 480. I believe that this issue has to do with vertical blending that is intentionally introduced into the image for interlaced video (and presumably for frame mode also, which evidently has even less vertical res). Picture a thin horizontal line in an image that's only one pixel tall. In this case the line would only appear in every other interlaced field. This would cause the line to flicker on and off. The cameras are designed to prevent this by averaging lines from the odd and even fields. From what I've read this limits the vertical res of our prosumer cameras to about 360 lines, and tests I've done would seem to confirm this.

July 7th, 2004, 05:58 AM	#30
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	Well, CCDs in video cameras are interesting subjects. There are several different designs and methods of outputting the video. Thought I would post some references and you can noodle on them. Progressive: What You Need to Know What is Progressive Scan Sony Semiconductor Choosing a CCD Panasonic CCDs (Shows the relationship of the CCD to other parts of the camera system.)