Are we being "HAD?"

Justin Boyle · April 27th, 2004, 02:10 AM

i would guess as well that they will still keep using 1/6 ccds. if any bigger i dont think they could have made the camera smaller than the 953 because the focal lengths of the lens would have to be smaller. there would be one way to find out you know. if there is anyone out there that knows a little about optics see if you can find the the focal lengths of the lens in mm and then its 35mm equivelent and calculate from there it should tell you the size of the ccd. I don't know if it is sony's ccd's as such that do the advance had. is it not the software after the capture of the image that reduces the noise. from what i read the ccd samples each image twice in succession with one normal sensitivity and one very low so the later produces practically a dark image. from this it analyses the noise in the later image and takes a sample to move the same noise from the original image to come up with a picture with a lot less noise.

Justin

Frank Granovski · April 27th, 2004, 02:13 AM

Do you recall the EZ1? A small Pana 3-chip with 1/3" CCDs and a big lens, but it still was a small hand-held.

Justin Boyle · April 27th, 2004, 02:28 AM

yes but you look at it and it had to have been a fair bit bigger than the 953. and no i dont remember it i was about 15 and definately not into video then. but yes i do know the cam you are talking about. isn't that about the size of a vx-2000. it was a longer cam too wasn't it. Anyways don't quote me that is my theory but i still believe that if anyone could find the lens details and calculate from there then we might be able to figure out the size

Justin

Frank Granovski · April 27th, 2004, 03:09 AM

Yes, you're right about the smaller size, less noise (and sharper footage). Also, the EZ1 was shaped like an Italian sausage or like a UFO. I kept a pic of it for a long time, but deleated it a few months back. That bad thing about it was no firewire, as I recall, it needed a docking station for some functions, and its video was rather noisy. I thought it was the cat's _ss, though, several years back. I also used the 1-chip version which I can't recall, I mean the model number.

Justin Boyle · April 28th, 2004, 01:49 AM

yes frank well in that time i don't think many of the cameras had firewire did they. it would have really sucked because it means you would have to fork out the extra money for some sort of deck to capruter to the computer because i must say that i don't really like the idea of capturing in analogue. just my preference. you look at it the vx1000 didn't have firewire by memory and i don't think the XL1 did either so there you have it. I could be wrong. I really do hope for our sake and panas sake that they have done something decent with this camera to improve its low light because i think this is the biggest thing holding pana back at the moment because we all know that there is very little difference in well lit footage between the panas and much more expensive cams. I too frank would have my eyes on the dvc30 but i will say it again that i don't plan on upgrading until i can get HD. and by that i mean 1080P.

Justin

Justin

Frank Granovski · April 28th, 2004, 02:39 AM

I know I've mentioned this all too often, but it's the low light concern which keeps me hanging onto my 2 DVL9500 cams. Shooting funerals, the odd wedding, parties and sometimes religious ceremonies, low light concerns are real.

Quote:

i don't plan on upgrading until i can get HD. and by that i mean 1080P

Aren't we headed for lower rez'd MPEG2?

Tommy Haupfear · April 28th, 2004, 05:16 AM

Quote:

and by that i mean 1080P

Sounds like someone wont' be upgrading for a LONG time! TV stations are still at 720p and 1080i and those investments will be around for years. I'll gladly take a nice camcorder (Panasonic hopefully) that shoots 720p 60fps but not the watered down HDV format and maybe a new storage solution.

Kamal Tailor · April 28th, 2004, 10:07 AM

yes they need to make solidstate storage cheaper and in larger sizes, ie 200GB+ in a package no bigger than DV tape or a ZIP disk style size. how sweet would that be =)
=)~ *drool*

yeah i don't imagine 1080p stuff to come out for a while but they are developing tv's and projectors that are able to handle those resolutions natively and even upscale lower resolutions to 1080p

ie some 57" Toshiba rear projection tv that they've got out in the US but not in Australia and an up and coming JVC D-ILA projector.

i'd like both but they're going to be around AUD$20k+ over in australia =(

hopefully the GS400 can at least output 720p, as it's not that much higher than standard PAL resolution, well compared to what it is for NTSC anyway. (NTSC = 480lines, PAL = 576lines)

oh yeah, but the way Sony has just come out with a new high end consumer range of products, called Qualia, they have a projector that has technology similar to D-ILA(LCoS) but i can't remember the name of it except that it starts with M. developed by sony apparently.don't know how different it is from LCoS.

oh yeah, you guys should remember also that Sony have also recently made an 8MP stills camera that uses 4CCD's RGB and an Emerald one. i'm sure they'll be able to adapt that later into their next generation Camcorders, well hopefully Panasonic does it first, but if not, we may all have to go over to the 'darkside' hehehe

i'm not a geek i swear!!! ;)

Young Lee · April 28th, 2004, 11:40 AM

"hopefully the GS400 can at least output 720p"

Are you really sure about it? I thought the GS400 was a MiniDV cam.

George Beck · April 28th, 2004, 11:45 AM

720p or 720i is quite probable.
but most likely it will be posible to record only trough FireWire or on the SD.

Tommy Haupfear · April 28th, 2004, 12:06 PM

Quote:

720p or 720i is quite probable.
but most likely it will be posible to record only trough FireWire or on the SD.

As big of a fan of HD as I am, even I have to admit that the likelyhood of a 720p feed via firewire is slim to none. Camcorder manufacturers are fully aware of their cams outputting video (via firewire) while in still mode and its not in their best interest to allow a HD signal (if its even possible) to be fed to a PC/Mac. In fact, just think of ALL the megapixel camcorders on the market today with some having CCDs as large as 3 Megapixels and NONE output anything over 720x480 while in still mode.

I wonder what the JVC HDV cams output to firewire while in still mode (just kidding).

George Beck · April 28th, 2004, 01:15 PM

well.. if Pana does this it will take back the market share in this level of camcorder sells.

Actually there's no sensible reason other than HD720 to have 1Mega frames running trough the cam's video circutry when recording, as it will be the case here.

As it looks Pana is going forward solid state recording (like P2) and avoiding HD on tape whatsoever.
And loks like it's going in this direciton with the SD 1GB announced recently.
So if we have HD with this cam it will probably NOT be trough miniDV tape where the DV compresion will be used again.
what's left is FireWire, SD and MMC.

I can see myself ... waking around with a GS400 and a wire coming out of it to my backsack where a small laptop is capturing HD720 =)
gosh.. i'll need more money....

any donations for me.. send money to:
.. ;-)

Justin Boyle · April 29th, 2004, 05:14 AM

heh tommy correct me if i am wrong but that wont be too far away i dont think. maybe the 3ccd might take a while to penetrate the market however i do believe the the JVC HD-10 camera is 1080 mpeg2 and that cam can be had for around the price of a vx-2000

Justin

Tommy Haupfear · April 29th, 2004, 05:41 AM

Quote:

heh tommy correct me if i am wrong but that wont be too far away i dont think.

HDV is here, but my point is that no SD cam to date has a SECRET 720p HD output via firewire even though many of them have more than double the amount of pixels found in the JVC GR-HD1 and JY-HD10.

Quote:

i do believe the the JVC HD-10 camera is 1080 mpeg2

The GR-HD1 and JY-HD10 record HD footage at only 720p @ 30fps. They both can output 1080i via their component video adapter but thats only because most early HDTVs cannot display a 720p (1280x720) signal.

April 27th, 2004, 02:10 AM	#16
Justin Boyle Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 207	i would guess as well that they will still keep using 1/6 ccds. if any bigger i dont think they could have made the camera smaller than the 953 because the focal lengths of the lens would have to be smaller. there would be one way to find out you know. if there is anyone out there that knows a little about optics see if you can find the the focal lengths of the lens in mm and then its 35mm equivelent and calculate from there it should tell you the size of the ccd. I don't know if it is sony's ccd's as such that do the advance had. is it not the software after the capture of the image that reduces the noise. from what i read the ccd samples each image twice in succession with one normal sensitivity and one very low so the later produces practically a dark image. from this it analyses the noise in the later image and takes a sample to move the same noise from the original image to come up with a picture with a lot less noise. Justin __________________ jlboyle

April 27th, 2004, 02:28 AM	#18
Justin Boyle Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 207	yes but you look at it and it had to have been a fair bit bigger than the 953. and no i dont remember it i was about 15 and definately not into video then. but yes i do know the cam you are talking about. isn't that about the size of a vx-2000. it was a longer cam too wasn't it. Anyways don't quote me that is my theory but i still believe that if anyone could find the lens details and calculate from there then we might be able to figure out the size Justin __________________ jlboyle

April 28th, 2004, 01:49 AM	#20
Justin Boyle Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 207	yes frank well in that time i don't think many of the cameras had firewire did they. it would have really sucked because it means you would have to fork out the extra money for some sort of deck to capruter to the computer because i must say that i don't really like the idea of capturing in analogue. just my preference. you look at it the vx1000 didn't have firewire by memory and i don't think the XL1 did either so there you have it. I could be wrong. I really do hope for our sake and panas sake that they have done something decent with this camera to improve its low light because i think this is the biggest thing holding pana back at the moment because we all know that there is very little difference in well lit footage between the panas and much more expensive cams. I too frank would have my eyes on the dvc30 but i will say it again that i don't plan on upgrading until i can get HD. and by that i mean 1080P. Justin Justin __________________ jlboyle

April 29th, 2004, 05:14 AM	#28
Justin Boyle Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 207	heh tommy correct me if i am wrong but that wont be too far away i dont think. maybe the 3ccd might take a while to penetrate the market however i do believe the the JVC HD-10 camera is 1080 mpeg2 and that cam can be had for around the price of a vx-2000 Justin __________________ jlboyle

April 27th, 2004, 02:13 AM	#17
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Do you recall the EZ1? A small Pana 3-chip with 1/3" CCDs and a big lens, but it still was a small hand-held.

April 27th, 2004, 03:09 AM	#19
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Yes, you're right about the smaller size, less noise (and sharper footage). Also, the EZ1 was shaped like an Italian sausage or like a UFO. I kept a pic of it for a long time, but deleated it a few months back. That bad thing about it was no firewire, as I recall, it needed a docking station for some functions, and its video was rather noisy. I thought it was the cat's _ss, though, several years back. I also used the 1-chip version which I can't recall, I mean the model number.

April 28th, 2004, 10:07 AM	#23
Kamal Tailor Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Australia, Victoria, Melbourne Posts: 65	yes they need to make solidstate storage cheaper and in larger sizes, ie 200GB+ in a package no bigger than DV tape or a ZIP disk style size. how sweet would that be =) =)~ drool yeah i don't imagine 1080p stuff to come out for a while but they are developing tv's and projectors that are able to handle those resolutions natively and even upscale lower resolutions to 1080p ie some 57" Toshiba rear projection tv that they've got out in the US but not in Australia and an up and coming JVC D-ILA projector. i'd like both but they're going to be around AUD$20k+ over in australia =( hopefully the GS400 can at least output 720p, as it's not that much higher than standard PAL resolution, well compared to what it is for NTSC anyway. (NTSC = 480lines, PAL = 576lines) oh yeah, but the way Sony has just come out with a new high end consumer range of products, called Qualia, they have a projector that has technology similar to D-ILA(LCoS) but i can't remember the name of it except that it starts with M. developed by sony apparently.don't know how different it is from LCoS. oh yeah, you guys should remember also that Sony have also recently made an 8MP stills camera that uses 4CCD's RGB and an Emerald one. i'm sure they'll be able to adapt that later into their next generation Camcorders, well hopefully Panasonic does it first, but if not, we may all have to go over to the 'darkside' hehehe i'm not a geek i swear!!! ;)

April 28th, 2004, 11:40 AM	#24
Young Lee Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 268	"hopefully the GS400 can at least output 720p" Are you really sure about it? I thought the GS400 was a MiniDV cam.

April 28th, 2004, 11:45 AM	#25
George Beck Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 244	720p or 720i is quite probable. but most likely it will be posible to record only trough FireWire or on the SD.

April 28th, 2004, 01:15 PM	#27
George Beck Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 244	well.. if Pana does this it will take back the market share in this level of camcorder sells. Actually there's no sensible reason other than HD720 to have 1Mega frames running trough the cam's video circutry when recording, as it will be the case here. As it looks Pana is going forward solid state recording (like P2) and avoiding HD on tape whatsoever. And loks like it's going in this direciton with the SD 1GB announced recently. So if we have HD with this cam it will probably NOT be trough miniDV tape where the DV compresion will be used again. what's left is FireWire, SD and MMC. I can see myself ... waking around with a GS400 and a wire coming out of it to my backsack where a small laptop is capturing HD720 =) gosh.. i'll need more money.... any donations for me.. send money to: .. ;-)