GS400 at DVinfo.net

George Beck · April 22nd, 2004, 12:11 PM

PV-GS400/NV-GS400

3CCD x 1,070,000 pixels
CCD size 1/4.7"
4 MEGA still (2304 x 1728)
Lens 58 mm
Leica Dicomar Lens
Crystal Engine
10xOptical Zoom
Telemacro Mode
MEGA O.I.S.

Pro Cinema Mode
High Picture-Quality Wide Mode
Colour Night View
Soft Skin Mode
Motion Video/Still Picture (1 MEGA) Simultaneous Rec
True recording 25 images/sec video MPEG4 (PAL version)

Multi Manual Ring
3.5" LCD Monitor
Air Soft Grip
Built-in Flash

4ECM stereo microphone
Wind noise decrease function

SD/MMC Card Compatible
USB 2 (HS Mode)
Webcam

Quick start
DV/Analogue In- and OUtput
MX500/DV953 replacement

This is what we know so far. It is possible that you may be able to record HD footage (at least on the SD or trough FireWire).

Tommy Haupfear · April 22nd, 2004, 12:23 PM

Quote:

This is what we know so far. It is possible that you may be able to record HD footage (at least on the SD or trough FireWire).

More than likely you can snap megapixel stills to SD memory while recording video to tape but I highly doubt that it will be 30fps or able to be output via firewire.

George did you just combine the specs so far or is this from a particular site?

George Beck · April 22nd, 2004, 12:43 PM

specs were compiled from different pages.

Tommy, FireWire can go up to 400Mbps. I think that will be sufficient for 30 fps HD. Looks to me like the technology is there...
(and when we talk about HD here, it will be at most 720p)

The fact that you can snap 1 Mega pic while recording means that the cam is processign the images in 1Mega quality while video recording. Of cource the limitation of miniDV and more over it's codec will limit the quality down to DV format (when recorded on a tape), I doubt they have changed the compression (it will not be HDV for sure), but there are no sign for different type of tape compresson to be used by Pana yet. Maybe they have their own version in development, but I would think they are moving towards P2 and direct drive recording with no tape.

Tommy Haupfear · April 22nd, 2004, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Tommy, FireWire can go up to 400Mbps. I think that will be sufficient for 30 fps HD. Looks to me like the technology is there...
(and when we talk about HD here, it will be at most 720p)

I didn't mean that Firewire doesn't have the capability of transferring HD content (at least HDV) but moreover that I doubt that Panasonic will allow a full megapixel output via firewire. At least that was the case with my past Sony PDX10 with its 1.07 megapixel 3CCD arrangement. Not saying its not possible but that its not likely. In the case of the PDX10 you gained increased horizontal and vertical real estate but it would still output 720x480 via firewire and made for a soft picture compared to standard interlaced output.

Here is a frame grab via firewire from the PDX10 in video mode

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-...0mobovideo.JPG

Here is the frame grab via firewire in still mode (noticed the increased real estate but loss in resolution)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-...mobomemory.JPG

Of course the PDX10 could not take megapixel stills while recording video but that still does not indicate that the GS400's firewire output will pass anything other than 720x480 (NTSC).

George Beck · April 22nd, 2004, 02:02 PM

I see...
and yes, if they decide to put a "cap" and to limit GS400 output it's possible.

The reason I think GS400 will be able to spit-out HD720 is that the cam's video circutry can processes the frames with this resolution. (shown by the fact of 1Mega still capture while recording)

Where the PDX10 will process them in NTSC(720x480) (and when you take a still while you are recording, it will be NTSC size)

I guess the reason the poorer quality image of the still you get is that even though you get a large size image, it goes through the video image circutry (which forces it to NTSC standard) and the size reduction does not have a good algorithm.

but until Pana releases the full specs we'll be just guessing =/

Tommy Haupfear · April 22nd, 2004, 02:23 PM

Yep, guessing and waiting.

If it turns out to have a secret 720p mode I'd be forced to buy two!

Tavis Shaver · April 22nd, 2004, 11:52 PM

If the gs400 does 720p then i will eat a whole hat store.

Young Lee · April 22nd, 2004, 11:59 PM

But that's not gonna happen. :)

Frank Granovski · April 23rd, 2004, 12:43 AM

Quote:

But that's not gonna happen.

What's not going to happan? The GS4 having 720P or Tommy eating a hat store? My guess it'll only come with MX5 or GS1 widescreen and MPEG4 for uploading to the Internet. Perhaps you can ask Pana Japan about this. info@panasonic.jp

Justin Boyle · April 23rd, 2004, 03:28 AM

sorry guys but i think that we are getting ahead of ourselves. i would expect that being 3ccd, if it was HD (the first on the market with 3ccd) it would be a lot more expensive than that. The camera will always be processing larger images than it records. it will have to downscale to dv resolution. The difference with a HD cam and dv cam is that the HD cam will have hardware in it to compress the footage to mpeg2 and then record that to tape. that is where the extra cost comes. I can tell you now that a card for your computer that does this in sd real time will cost you at least $500. maybe 200-300 in the us. this is a fair bit of money so you consider one built small enough to put in a camera that will do video in HD and you would be looking at some expensive hardware.
Justin

Frank Granovski · April 23rd, 2004, 04:30 AM

According to Allan (who lives and works in Japan), HD in Japan does not mean what it means in North America. It just means high defininition/high resolution...I think.

Guy Bruner · April 23rd, 2004, 05:38 AM

I've got my first class tickets to Vancouver already! I want to see Tavis eat that hat store!! :-)))

Tavis, I'll bring the salt and pepper if you bring the catsup...

George Beck · April 23rd, 2004, 09:13 AM

Justin, if you take the case of sony's PDX10 (having the same CCD as GS400) you'll see that it processes only NTSC actually just go back and read the posts. (and as talked about HDV is not possible, and miniDV .. actually go back and read all posts =) )

Guy, I'll bring catchup and a GS400, and I'll record him eating the hats in HD720 =)
just to make sure he doesn't miss a hat ;-)

Chris Szypulski · April 23rd, 2004, 09:49 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : According to Allan (who lives and works in Japan), HD in Japan does not mean what it means in North America. It just means high defininition/high resolution...I think. -->>>

That is the funniest thing I heard about HDTV. High Definition in Japan means the same as in US. They just sometimes like to call it Hi Vision but it is the same.

GS400 is SD DV camcorder. It does not or will not record HD. DV format does not have bandwith to record HD unless it is compressed into MPEG2 like JVC camera does. Besides anything lower than 60fps sucks as far as motion. You can see that when watching JVC HD cam output.

BTW, firewire output is raw transport stream from a tape. There is no way to cap it unless it is recompressed again.

Also when HD camcorder will come out it will be a lot more expansive. It for sure will be more than $1499 msrp. It probably be between $3000 and $5000.

George Beck · April 23rd, 2004, 10:23 AM

another monkey on the wagon.... - hi Chris!

Chris you speak as if you were having an encounter of the third kind with GS400, yet you contradict yourself in the facts you give.

If you don't recompress the firewire stream, it will be in 1Megapixel frames. We know that from the size of frame the cam captures while recording, which is 1Mega. (I wonder.. how many times I'll have to repeat that...) And it is not "raw transport from the tape" =) (tape cannot transmit ;-), and we know the cam motion video circutry handles 1Megas). of course if you playback a miniDV tape and capture through firewire you'll lose the resolution.

and it will not be recording HD on the miniDV tape. for this to be possible and not to have a crappy image as the JVC-HD (HDV) we need to have MPEG4 compressed stream on the miniDV. I seriously doubt that will happen. (this summer, if ever)

and Chris.. you quick-eye you! 60fps, eh? and I still watch 24fps in the movie theaters. (going to a movie must be killing you =) )

if you compare the prices of DV953 which, if we say that gs400 does not do HD, is not much more different, is being sold for 800$.

again.. why and how will it be possible to have affordable HD? keep small size multi-pixel CCD so you can keep the optics small (which are very expensive). If you go for what Chris assumes an HD cam should have, it will be quite expensive.

besides, Pana showed teaser prototype HD cam for about 3000$ working only on P2 (no tapes) and it is capible of 720p and 1080i.

a cam with only 720p is in the exact price range as GS400 will be.

read and think before you post =)
cheers

April 22nd, 2004, 12:11 PM	#1
George Beck Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 244	GS400 PV-GS400/NV-GS400 3CCD x 1,070,000 pixels CCD size 1/4.7" 4 MEGA still (2304 x 1728) Lens 58 mm Leica Dicomar Lens Crystal Engine 10xOptical Zoom Telemacro Mode MEGA O.I.S. Pro Cinema Mode High Picture-Quality Wide Mode Colour Night View Soft Skin Mode Motion Video/Still Picture (1 MEGA) Simultaneous Rec True recording 25 images/sec video MPEG4 (PAL version) Multi Manual Ring 3.5" LCD Monitor Air Soft Grip Built-in Flash 4ECM stereo microphone Wind noise decrease function SD/MMC Card Compatible USB 2 (HS Mode) Webcam Quick start DV/Analogue In- and OUtput MX500/DV953 replacement This is what we know so far. It is possible that you may be able to record HD footage (at least on the SD or trough FireWire).

April 23rd, 2004, 03:28 AM	#10
Justin Boyle Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 207	sorry guys but i think that we are getting ahead of ourselves. i would expect that being 3ccd, if it was HD (the first on the market with 3ccd) it would be a lot more expensive than that. The camera will always be processing larger images than it records. it will have to downscale to dv resolution. The difference with a HD cam and dv cam is that the HD cam will have hardware in it to compress the footage to mpeg2 and then record that to tape. that is where the extra cost comes. I can tell you now that a card for your computer that does this in sd real time will cost you at least $500. maybe 200-300 in the us. this is a fair bit of money so you consider one built small enough to put in a camera that will do video in HD and you would be looking at some expensive hardware. Justin __________________ jlboyle

April 22nd, 2004, 12:43 PM	#3
George Beck Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 244	specs were compiled from different pages. Tommy, FireWire can go up to 400Mbps. I think that will be sufficient for 30 fps HD. Looks to me like the technology is there... (and when we talk about HD here, it will be at most 720p) The fact that you can snap 1 Mega pic while recording means that the cam is processign the images in 1Mega quality while video recording. Of cource the limitation of miniDV and more over it's codec will limit the quality down to DV format (when recorded on a tape), I doubt they have changed the compression (it will not be HDV for sure), but there are no sign for different type of tape compresson to be used by Pana yet. Maybe they have their own version in development, but I would think they are moving towards P2 and direct drive recording with no tape.

April 22nd, 2004, 02:02 PM	#5
George Beck Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 244	I see... and yes, if they decide to put a "cap" and to limit GS400 output it's possible. The reason I think GS400 will be able to spit-out HD720 is that the cam's video circutry can processes the frames with this resolution. (shown by the fact of 1Mega still capture while recording) Where the PDX10 will process them in NTSC(720x480) (and when you take a still while you are recording, it will be NTSC size) I guess the reason the poorer quality image of the still you get is that even though you get a large size image, it goes through the video image circutry (which forces it to NTSC standard) and the size reduction does not have a good algorithm. but until Pana releases the full specs we'll be just guessing =/

April 22nd, 2004, 02:23 PM	#6
Tommy Haupfear Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,415	Yep, guessing and waiting. If it turns out to have a secret 720p mode I'd be forced to buy two!

April 22nd, 2004, 11:52 PM	#7
Tavis Shaver Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC. Canada Posts: 209	If the gs400 does 720p then i will eat a whole hat store.

April 22nd, 2004, 11:59 PM	#8
Young Lee Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 268	But that's not gonna happen. :)

April 23rd, 2004, 04:30 AM	#11
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	According to Allan (who lives and works in Japan), HD in Japan does not mean what it means in North America. It just means high defininition/high resolution...I think.

April 23rd, 2004, 05:38 AM	#12
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	I've got my first class tickets to Vancouver already! I want to see Tavis eat that hat store!! :-))) Tavis, I'll bring the salt and pepper if you bring the catsup...

April 23rd, 2004, 09:13 AM	#13
George Beck Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 244	Justin, if you take the case of sony's PDX10 (having the same CCD as GS400) you'll see that it processes only NTSC actually just go back and read the posts. (and as talked about HDV is not possible, and miniDV .. actually go back and read all posts =) ) Guy, I'll bring catchup and a GS400, and I'll record him eating the hats in HD720 =) just to make sure he doesn't miss a hat ;-)

April 23rd, 2004, 09:49 AM	#14
Chris Szypulski New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 8	<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : According to Allan (who lives and works in Japan), HD in Japan does not mean what it means in North America. It just means high defininition/high resolution...I think. -->>> That is the funniest thing I heard about HDTV. High Definition in Japan means the same as in US. They just sometimes like to call it Hi Vision but it is the same. GS400 is SD DV camcorder. It does not or will not record HD. DV format does not have bandwith to record HD unless it is compressed into MPEG2 like JVC camera does. Besides anything lower than 60fps sucks as far as motion. You can see that when watching JVC HD cam output. BTW, firewire output is raw transport stream from a tape. There is no way to cap it unless it is recompressed again. Also when HD camcorder will come out it will be a lot more expansive. It for sure will be more than $1499 msrp. It probably be between $3000 and $5000.

April 23rd, 2004, 10:23 AM	#15
George Beck Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 244	another monkey on the wagon.... - hi Chris! Chris you speak as if you were having an encounter of the third kind with GS400, yet you contradict yourself in the facts you give. If you don't recompress the firewire stream, it will be in 1Megapixel frames. We know that from the size of frame the cam captures while recording, which is 1Mega. (I wonder.. how many times I'll have to repeat that...) And it is not "raw transport from the tape" =) (tape cannot transmit ;-), and we know the cam motion video circutry handles 1Megas). of course if you playback a miniDV tape and capture through firewire you'll lose the resolution. and it will not be recording HD on the miniDV tape. for this to be possible and not to have a crappy image as the JVC-HD (HDV) we need to have MPEG4 compressed stream on the miniDV. I seriously doubt that will happen. (this summer, if ever) and Chris.. you quick-eye you! 60fps, eh? and I still watch 24fps in the movie theaters. (going to a movie must be killing you =) ) if you compare the prices of DV953 which, if we say that gs400 does not do HD, is not much more different, is being sold for 800$. again.. why and how will it be possible to have affordable HD? keep small size multi-pixel CCD so you can keep the optics small (which are very expensive). If you go for what Chris assumes an HD cam should have, it will be quite expensive. besides, Pana showed teaser prototype HD cam for about 3000$ working only on P2 (no tapes) and it is capible of 720p and 1080i. a cam with only 720p is in the exact price range as GS400 will be. read and think before you post =) cheers