MX500, to sharpen or not to sharpen

Tommy Haupfear · January 15th, 2004, 08:04 AM

I use the Japanese site less and less these days as they tend to favor Sony cams. I (and most anyone else) can get better results from their "less than VX2000" cams.

Quote:

She was just as satisfied with our old 4:3 standard def big screen with all its 240 lines of resolution.

Your analog NTSC TV was capable of 480i but used an even and odd field of 240 interlaced lines to create a frame. That and its hard to beat a crappy cable feed on a 20" analog 4:3 set. They seem to be made for each other. Other than my wife and daughter my HDTV sits dormant except for the occassional rented or homemade DVD. I'm just thankful I don't have any burn-in issues (LCD) with as much Sponge Bob Square Pants the TV has to endure. :)

Ben Wiens · January 15th, 2004, 11:09 AM

Where do I get my head examined? I'm seeing problems while others see none. Now if we could just all get beamed to a meeting spot with our camcorders and TVs I think we could start to make some progress in determining where our differences in opinion come from. Maybe I'll go down to the mall today and see if a store will let me play back my footage on different TVs.

The most baffling issue is this. When I play back all kinds of footage from my Panasonic PV-DV852, the quality is much worse than what I see on cable TV. Others say that the footage from the Panasonic PV-DV852, while not up to pro MiniDV quality, is still much better than cable TV. That's a huge difference in opinion.

Ayosha Kononenko · January 15th, 2004, 03:18 PM

Hi Allan,

Rather than repeat myself here is a link to my first post where I stated my wants and needs.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19260

I will check PC300 in more detail shortly (over net not for real).

Ayosha Kononenko · January 15th, 2004, 03:56 PM

Seen PC330 at DVSpot.

Don't like the lack of manual settings.

I filmed with such a small boxy Sony like this and found it impossible to hold it in my hand. Ended having a tripod screwed in permanently and holding its head. And than you get to change the tape.... I simply hated the blasted thing. Funny how everybody was pleased with the result. Must be the talent bursting through :-):-)

Objectively, the quality of that video (I think it was 105 or 108 model) was below my worst VHS tape, recorded from cable TV.

Back to the old drawing board.

Michael Wisniewski · January 18th, 2004, 02:03 AM

Optura Xi frame grabs (click here)

Frank Granovski · January 18th, 2004, 03:53 AM

The PC330 is a stripped down version of the PC300, I am told.

Ayosha Kononenko · January 18th, 2004, 04:55 AM

Thanks Michael,

I see not a trace of the horizontal black & white halo effect (Pana Mx500 style) present in this grabs.

Sharpening artefacts are low and likely mostly hidden by compression (probably .jpg).

There is some colour fringing (if that is the proper terminology) best seen in xi01.jpg where top and left edges of the black bag against snow are bluish and bottom and right edges are reddish. The same effect can be found in xi05.jpg, watch the legs, and xi02.jpg at the building roof and branches above the squirrel, shot against the sky. But I am yet to see a camera without some of that effect.

The worst fault (if you can call it a fault) that I can see is yellow shift where yellow part of the image is shifted to the right as seen on traffic light boxes in xi12.jpg and cab in xi11.jpg. Compared to that red looks well contained. MX500 grabs show similar amounts of yellow shift (1%, again to the right).

Michael, you took the shoots, tell us what do you think about the fidelity of the results, you are the only one to see the original scene.

The Xi thread is here

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...182#post136182

but I am not sure where to continue the discussion. As this thread is longer, and likely to be read more I propose to stay here in spite of the fact that we are talking about Xi.

Frank Granovski · January 18th, 2004, 05:17 AM

Just continue here for this topic. It won't meld with the other thread.

Michael Wisniewski · January 18th, 2004, 01:26 PM

Perhaps somebody with a DV953 would like to meet up in New York City so we can take video under the same conditions?

Michael Wisniewski · January 18th, 2004, 01:27 PM

I'll get some "sunny day" Xi footage so we can compare it to the low contrast / overcast lighting of the current shots.

Re: the shot of the bag
The overcast sun was shining on the bag from the right side of the photo - that's probably why there's a red tinge.

Justin Boyle · January 18th, 2004, 07:35 PM

Nice grabs. I am surprised at the quality of them. It would be nice to see them on a tv. I dont know how my 500 would perform against this as i got the camera in summer and it is still summer here so there has been very little overcast days. In fact it is overcast today so I intend to have a little dabble at it. another thing. it has never snowed here. the Xi appears to have a very soft picture definately the opposite to the pana. I hate to say it but because of the panas sharpness, at times the picture can be a little harsh when filming trees etc in the background. once again i need to try it on an overcast day. It is definately the best lighting for shooting. For me however it will be very hard for me to buy a single ccd camera. I just love the color reproduction in all lighting conditions with exception to the few problems of oversaturation. One example is the jvc hd10. It is a beautiful camera and in good lighting the color reproduction is wonderful and the hd is great. however the colors the rest of the time aren't as saturated and as natural and bright. This is a problem. but once again, nice grabs.

Justin

Young Lee · January 19th, 2004, 01:48 AM

Here are a few frame grabs of my MX5000.

http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...ic/Image42.jpg
http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...nic/Image0.jpg
http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...nic/Image3.jpg
http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...nic/Image9.jpg
http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...ic/Image24.jpg
http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...ic/Image12.jpg
http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...ic/Image36.jpg

Ayosha Kononenko · January 19th, 2004, 05:03 AM

Hi Young Lee,

Thanks for the grabs, I love your roses (img 40 and 42).

Could you do us a favour?

Could you take several shots the same or similar subject (light bright colours against dark background, good light) with various levels of sharpness all the way down to 0%. And then take some frame grabs with as little jpg compression as possible. And post them?

As you know from the thread we are trying to understand where that B&W halo effect comes from and how to shoot to reduce it. We are also trying to compare it to Canon Xi which is seen as its nearest competitor.

And tell us how you see those clips on your TV against each other, what is the price you pay for shooting with sharpness set to low.

Thanks

Guy Bruner · January 19th, 2004, 06:39 AM

Young Lee,
Good shots, I particularly liked #12...the marker pens. Would you post your sharpness and color settings, shutter speed, mode of camera (auto/manual) and method of processing the frame into JPG?

Guy Bruner · January 19th, 2004, 10:57 AM

I have posted some new frame grabs taken in natural light.

The file name explains the shot parameters but, FYI, I shot in 4:3 and 16:9 auto and manual, normal and frame mode. Auto used 1/60th shutter. Manual used both 1/60th and 1/750th shutter. Sharpness was set in manual at 30% and color at 50%.

Video was brought into Vegas. 60i clips were rendered to progressive (deinterlaced) in its native format (except for 30p which didn't need deinterlacing). Frame grabs were taken from the deinterlaced clip.

If enough people are interested, I could post some of the video clips.

January 15th, 2004, 03:18 PM	#33
Ayosha Kononenko Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: London UK Posts: 51	Hi Allan, Rather than repeat myself here is a link to my first post where I stated my wants and needs. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19260 I will check PC300 in more detail shortly (over net not for real). __________________ ayosha

January 15th, 2004, 03:56 PM	#34
Ayosha Kononenko Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: London UK Posts: 51	Seen PC330 at DVSpot. Don't like the lack of manual settings. I filmed with such a small boxy Sony like this and found it impossible to hold it in my hand. Ended having a tripod screwed in permanently and holding its head. And than you get to change the tape.... I simply hated the blasted thing. Funny how everybody was pleased with the result. Must be the talent bursting through :-):-) Objectively, the quality of that video (I think it was 105 or 108 model) was below my worst VHS tape, recorded from cable TV. Back to the old drawing board. __________________ ayosha

January 18th, 2004, 04:55 AM	#37
Ayosha Kononenko Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: London UK Posts: 51	Thanks Michael, I see not a trace of the horizontal black & white halo effect (Pana Mx500 style) present in this grabs. Sharpening artefacts are low and likely mostly hidden by compression (probably .jpg). There is some colour fringing (if that is the proper terminology) best seen in xi01.jpg where top and left edges of the black bag against snow are bluish and bottom and right edges are reddish. The same effect can be found in xi05.jpg, watch the legs, and xi02.jpg at the building roof and branches above the squirrel, shot against the sky. But I am yet to see a camera without some of that effect. The worst fault (if you can call it a fault) that I can see is yellow shift where yellow part of the image is shifted to the right as seen on traffic light boxes in xi12.jpg and cab in xi11.jpg. Compared to that red looks well contained. MX500 grabs show similar amounts of yellow shift (1%, again to the right). Michael, you took the shoots, tell us what do you think about the fidelity of the results, you are the only one to see the original scene. The Xi thread is here http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...182#post136182 but I am not sure where to continue the discussion. As this thread is longer, and likely to be read more I propose to stay here in spite of the fact that we are talking about Xi. __________________ ayosha

January 18th, 2004, 07:35 PM	#41
Justin Boyle Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 207	Nice grabs. I am surprised at the quality of them. It would be nice to see them on a tv. I dont know how my 500 would perform against this as i got the camera in summer and it is still summer here so there has been very little overcast days. In fact it is overcast today so I intend to have a little dabble at it. another thing. it has never snowed here. the Xi appears to have a very soft picture definately the opposite to the pana. I hate to say it but because of the panas sharpness, at times the picture can be a little harsh when filming trees etc in the background. once again i need to try it on an overcast day. It is definately the best lighting for shooting. For me however it will be very hard for me to buy a single ccd camera. I just love the color reproduction in all lighting conditions with exception to the few problems of oversaturation. One example is the jvc hd10. It is a beautiful camera and in good lighting the color reproduction is wonderful and the hd is great. however the colors the rest of the time aren't as saturated and as natural and bright. This is a problem. but once again, nice grabs. Justin __________________ jlboyle

January 19th, 2004, 05:03 AM	#43
Ayosha Kononenko Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: London UK Posts: 51	Hi Young Lee, Thanks for the grabs, I love your roses (img 40 and 42). Could you do us a favour? Could you take several shots the same or similar subject (light bright colours against dark background, good light) with various levels of sharpness all the way down to 0%. And then take some frame grabs with as little jpg compression as possible. And post them? As you know from the thread we are trying to understand where that B&W halo effect comes from and how to shoot to reduce it. We are also trying to compare it to Canon Xi which is seen as its nearest competitor. And tell us how you see those clips on your TV against each other, what is the price you pay for shooting with sharpness set to low. Thanks __________________ ayosha

January 15th, 2004, 11:09 AM	#32
Ben Wiens Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 56	Where do I get my head examined? I'm seeing problems while others see none. Now if we could just all get beamed to a meeting spot with our camcorders and TVs I think we could start to make some progress in determining where our differences in opinion come from. Maybe I'll go down to the mall today and see if a store will let me play back my footage on different TVs. The most baffling issue is this. When I play back all kinds of footage from my Panasonic PV-DV852, the quality is much worse than what I see on cable TV. Others say that the footage from the Panasonic PV-DV852, while not up to pro MiniDV quality, is still much better than cable TV. That's a huge difference in opinion.

January 18th, 2004, 02:03 AM	#35
Michael Wisniewski Wrangler Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Makati, Metro Manila Posts: 2,706 Images: 32	Optura Xi frame grabs (click here)

January 18th, 2004, 03:53 AM	#36
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	The PC330 is a stripped down version of the PC300, I am told.

January 18th, 2004, 05:17 AM	#38
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Just continue here for this topic. It won't meld with the other thread.

January 18th, 2004, 01:26 PM	#39
Michael Wisniewski Wrangler Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Makati, Metro Manila Posts: 2,706 Images: 32	Perhaps somebody with a DV953 would like to meet up in New York City so we can take video under the same conditions?

January 18th, 2004, 01:27 PM	#40
Michael Wisniewski Wrangler Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Makati, Metro Manila Posts: 2,706 Images: 32	I'll get some "sunny day" Xi footage so we can compare it to the low contrast / overcast lighting of the current shots. Re: the shot of the bag The overcast sun was shining on the bag from the right side of the photo - that's probably why there's a red tinge.

January 19th, 2004, 01:48 AM	#42
Young Lee Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 268	Here are a few frame grabs of my MX5000. http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...ic/Image42.jpg http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...nic/Image0.jpg http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...nic/Image3.jpg http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...nic/Image9.jpg http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...ic/Image24.jpg http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...ic/Image12.jpg http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/...ic/Image36.jpg

January 19th, 2004, 06:39 AM	#44
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	Young Lee, Good shots, I particularly liked #12...the marker pens. Would you post your sharpness and color settings, shutter speed, mode of camera (auto/manual) and method of processing the frame into JPG?

January 19th, 2004, 10:57 AM	#45
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	DV953 Frame Grabs I have posted some new frame grabs taken in natural light. The file name explains the shot parameters but, FYI, I shot in 4:3 and 16:9 auto and manual, normal and frame mode. Auto used 1/60th shutter. Manual used both 1/60th and 1/750th shutter. Sharpness was set in manual at 30% and color at 50%. Video was brought into Vegas. 60i clips were rendered to progressive (deinterlaced) in its native format (except for 30p which didn't need deinterlacing). Frame grabs were taken from the deinterlaced clip. If enough people are interested, I could post some of the video clips.