HMC150 vs FX1

David J. Payne · January 1st, 2011, 03:59 AM

hi Tom thanks for the quick reply.
I do have a windshield and rode suspension system for the mic which works fantastically on my FX1. The 'rubber band' style suspension thing really is the best money I've spent on camera gear!

The only issue is that when filming a wedding ceremony I like to use the wireless mic receiver in the hot shoe (my Zoom H1 and Audio Technika lav mic really doesnt cut it for a ceremony, but ok for speeches) and I therefore need to put the shotgun in the circular holder attached to the camera. I'll do as you suggest and listen to the handling noise as this was a major issue on my FX1 hence buying the suspension holder.

I just did a quick test with the focus and when zoomed in I get a blurrier out of focus image which I suppose is expected as focal length affects this as I understand it. It isn't as different as I thought to pull back into focus on the HMC150 (maybe a 180 degree turn) compared to the FX1 (maybe 90 degrees)

However... when zoomed fully out (possibly because the HMC150 zooms out so much wider) the out of focus shot is much blurrier on the FX1 than the HMC150. Is this down to focal length again? This is when I notice the maybe 360 degree rotation required to pull focus (not 5 times.. that was a bit dramatic) compared to the 180 degrees on the FX1.

This is an issue as I cant physically rotate the ring 360 degrees without letting go and repositioning my grip. Therefore it takes longer to pull focus and it doesnt look as smooth.

i can only assume this is down to the wider lens?

Tom Hardwick · January 1st, 2011, 04:09 AM

Yes, the 28mm equiv of the 150 is a lot wider than the 32.5 mm of the FX1, but dof with both cameras will be HUGE at the wide end of the zoom, whatever the aperture or whatever the focused distance. You have to do these pull focus shots at longer focal lengths.

You could avoid the manual ring turning by switching the cam to manual focus, turning the ring to closest focus, then to pull focus you just slide the switch up into the auto-focus position. The camera then does all the 'ring turning' for you, though maybe too quickly for artistic merit.

Agree, a mic suspension mount is so important. I use the Rycote Softie with my 66 and have that in the hot shoe on my NX5 and have a second shoe mount for the radio receiver. I don't use Sony's mic holder at all.

I presumne it's a 151 you've got, not a 150, right?

tom.

David J. Payne · January 1st, 2011, 04:22 AM

Tom,

Yes I've got the 151.

I just thought, I have a 2nd thread on the handle dont I? Could I add another hot shoe there to use the suspension as well as mounting the wireless receiver?

Do you happen to know how gain equates to ISO so that I can do some low light tests at the same gain settings between the HMC150 and my DSLR? I tried yesterday but I was just guessing that 12db matched 1000iso etc and its pointless unless I get the facts first.

Tom Hardwick · January 1st, 2011, 04:28 AM

You could use that handle-mounted thread to hold another shoe but I've found the handle is far more important to be used as a handle for any run 'n' gun work.

This 'what's my camcorder's ISO?' question keeps cropping up and I've really no idea why. All manufacturers place zero gain as a compromise between us all thinking the cam's no good in the gloom to us thinking 0dB's a bit grainy, isn't it?... and dialing in -6dB.

Why do you need the ISO facts on your 151? You won't be using it with electronic flash.

tom.

David J. Payne · January 1st, 2011, 04:35 AM

I mean in order to compare my GH1 with the HMC151 in extreme low light where obviously gain/iso will be required. I suppose I could keep upping them until I see grain but it'd be handy to know where the level of gain is 'meant' to match if that makes sense.

I do mainly tripod stuff but the only time I would need the 2nd shoe would be during a wedding ceremony so I think the handle hotshoe might be the solution to keeping my suspension mount.

You can't dial in minus db gain on the HMC151 can you? Does it just go 0db-12db?

Do you think the 12db is adding as much digital gain to the picture as 12db on the FX1 or would the 151's 12db match the 18db gain on the FX1 better? I know the 151 would look considerably better on 12db than the FX1 on 18db but is that just because it's applying less gain?

Tom Hardwick · January 1st, 2011, 08:38 AM

Your 151 allows you to go to +18dB in 50i and 50p modes, but only to +12dB in 24/25p modes (why?). You're right - there's no minus gain settings as there is on many Sony cameras - even the 1997 TRV900 had this. It's very useful on bright days, better than upping the shutter speed to 1/100th to soak a stop.

I find the FX1's low light sensitivity somewhat lacking, but it's +18db setting to be very usable indeed, far nicer to look at than my NX5 at the same setting, where I feel Sony haven't got the noise:sharpness balance quite right. The 151 and FX1 also use CCDs - and this is very good for wedding filmmakers working under a barrage of electronic flash.

The 151 is nearly a stop more sensitive than the FX1 even using, focal length for focal length, a slightly slower lens, So I'd say they're probably neck and neck when one's on +9dB and the other's on +18dB. But then again, the 151 uses the far more modern AVCHD compression algorithms, whereas the FX1 is using MPEG2/HDV/ 2004 technology.

tom.

David J. Payne · January 3rd, 2011, 01:39 PM

Hmmm I've just tried changing the high gain value in the menu to 18 whilst in 720 50p, 1080 50p and 1080 25p and the option is not there on any of them... Does anyone know why?!

Tom Hardwick · January 3rd, 2011, 02:46 PM

Panasonic probably figure that anyone savvy enough to want to shoot progressive footage isn't going to like the grain that comes with +18DB of gain, though why you're not even given the option beats me.

I had an MX300 Panasonic back in the MiniDV days and that would only go to +12dB in auto, but in manual would give you another stop to 18dB. I could never figure out why it was programmed this way as probably 99% of the camera's owners shot in auto, and all ended up with under-exposed Christmas party footage.

My NX5 can film from -6dB up to 21dB, an incredible range. There's also a hyper-gain setting but you don't want to go there - you really don't.

tom.

David J. Payne · January 3rd, 2011, 03:06 PM

Haha no I'd imagine hyper gain isn't pretty!

Ok so it seems 18 db is possible through another menu..

"Gain Selector and ND Filter
The gain selector has three positions: L is fixed at 0 dB; and M and H can be set to 0, 3, 6, 9, or 12 dB. 18dB can also be accessed as a User button function. Three ND filters (1/4 ND, 1/16 ND, and 1/64 ND) are built-in."

January 1st, 2011, 03:59 AM	#76
David J. Payne Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southend-On-Sea, England Posts: 368	hi Tom thanks for the quick reply. I do have a windshield and rode suspension system for the mic which works fantastically on my FX1. The 'rubber band' style suspension thing really is the best money I've spent on camera gear! The only issue is that when filming a wedding ceremony I like to use the wireless mic receiver in the hot shoe (my Zoom H1 and Audio Technika lav mic really doesnt cut it for a ceremony, but ok for speeches) and I therefore need to put the shotgun in the circular holder attached to the camera. I'll do as you suggest and listen to the handling noise as this was a major issue on my FX1 hence buying the suspension holder. I just did a quick test with the focus and when zoomed in I get a blurrier out of focus image which I suppose is expected as focal length affects this as I understand it. It isn't as different as I thought to pull back into focus on the HMC150 (maybe a 180 degree turn) compared to the FX1 (maybe 90 degrees) However... when zoomed fully out (possibly because the HMC150 zooms out so much wider) the out of focus shot is much blurrier on the FX1 than the HMC150. Is this down to focal length again? This is when I notice the maybe 360 degree rotation required to pull focus (not 5 times.. that was a bit dramatic) compared to the 180 degrees on the FX1. This is an issue as I cant physically rotate the ring 360 degrees without letting go and repositioning my grip. Therefore it takes longer to pull focus and it doesnt look as smooth. i can only assume this is down to the wider lens?

January 1st, 2011, 04:09 AM	#77
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Yes, the 28mm equiv of the 150 is a lot wider than the 32.5 mm of the FX1, but dof with both cameras will be HUGE at the wide end of the zoom, whatever the aperture or whatever the focused distance. You have to do these pull focus shots at longer focal lengths. You could avoid the manual ring turning by switching the cam to manual focus, turning the ring to closest focus, then to pull focus you just slide the switch up into the auto-focus position. The camera then does all the 'ring turning' for you, though maybe too quickly for artistic merit. Agree, a mic suspension mount is so important. I use the Rycote Softie with my 66 and have that in the hot shoe on my NX5 and have a second shoe mount for the radio receiver. I don't use Sony's mic holder at all. I presumne it's a 151 you've got, not a 150, right? tom.

January 1st, 2011, 04:22 AM	#78
David J. Payne Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southend-On-Sea, England Posts: 368	Tom, Yes I've got the 151. I just thought, I have a 2nd thread on the handle dont I? Could I add another hot shoe there to use the suspension as well as mounting the wireless receiver? Do you happen to know how gain equates to ISO so that I can do some low light tests at the same gain settings between the HMC150 and my DSLR? I tried yesterday but I was just guessing that 12db matched 1000iso etc and its pointless unless I get the facts first.

January 1st, 2011, 04:28 AM	#79
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	You could use that handle-mounted thread to hold another shoe but I've found the handle is far more important to be used as a handle for any run 'n' gun work. This 'what's my camcorder's ISO?' question keeps cropping up and I've really no idea why. All manufacturers place zero gain as a compromise between us all thinking the cam's no good in the gloom to us thinking 0dB's a bit grainy, isn't it?... and dialing in -6dB. Why do you need the ISO facts on your 151? You won't be using it with electronic flash. tom.

January 1st, 2011, 04:35 AM	#80
David J. Payne Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southend-On-Sea, England Posts: 368	I mean in order to compare my GH1 with the HMC151 in extreme low light where obviously gain/iso will be required. I suppose I could keep upping them until I see grain but it'd be handy to know where the level of gain is 'meant' to match if that makes sense. I do mainly tripod stuff but the only time I would need the 2nd shoe would be during a wedding ceremony so I think the handle hotshoe might be the solution to keeping my suspension mount. You can't dial in minus db gain on the HMC151 can you? Does it just go 0db-12db? Do you think the 12db is adding as much digital gain to the picture as 12db on the FX1 or would the 151's 12db match the 18db gain on the FX1 better? I know the 151 would look considerably better on 12db than the FX1 on 18db but is that just because it's applying less gain?

January 1st, 2011, 08:38 AM	#81
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Your 151 allows you to go to +18dB in 50i and 50p modes, but only to +12dB in 24/25p modes (why?). You're right - there's no minus gain settings as there is on many Sony cameras - even the 1997 TRV900 had this. It's very useful on bright days, better than upping the shutter speed to 1/100th to soak a stop. I find the FX1's low light sensitivity somewhat lacking, but it's +18db setting to be very usable indeed, far nicer to look at than my NX5 at the same setting, where I feel Sony haven't got the noise:sharpness balance quite right. The 151 and FX1 also use CCDs - and this is very good for wedding filmmakers working under a barrage of electronic flash. The 151 is nearly a stop more sensitive than the FX1 even using, focal length for focal length, a slightly slower lens, So I'd say they're probably neck and neck when one's on +9dB and the other's on +18dB. But then again, the 151 uses the far more modern AVCHD compression algorithms, whereas the FX1 is using MPEG2/HDV/ 2004 technology. tom.

January 3rd, 2011, 01:39 PM	#82
David J. Payne Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southend-On-Sea, England Posts: 368	Hmmm I've just tried changing the high gain value in the menu to 18 whilst in 720 50p, 1080 50p and 1080 25p and the option is not there on any of them... Does anyone know why?!

January 3rd, 2011, 02:46 PM	#83
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Panasonic probably figure that anyone savvy enough to want to shoot progressive footage isn't going to like the grain that comes with +18DB of gain, though why you're not even given the option beats me. I had an MX300 Panasonic back in the MiniDV days and that would only go to +12dB in auto, but in manual would give you another stop to 18dB. I could never figure out why it was programmed this way as probably 99% of the camera's owners shot in auto, and all ended up with under-exposed Christmas party footage. My NX5 can film from -6dB up to 21dB, an incredible range. There's also a hyper-gain setting but you don't want to go there - you really don't. tom.

January 3rd, 2011, 03:06 PM	#84
David J. Payne Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southend-On-Sea, England Posts: 368	Haha no I'd imagine hyper gain isn't pretty! Ok so it seems 18 db is possible through another menu.. "Gain Selector and ND Filter The gain selector has three positions: L is fixed at 0 dB; and M and H can be set to 0, 3, 6, 9, or 12 dB. 18dB can also be accessed as a User button function. Three ND filters (1/4 ND, 1/16 ND, and 1/64 ND) are built-in."