HMC150 vs FX1

Jeff Harper · December 14th, 2010, 08:40 AM

If you have 20 batteries for your FX1, I thought you were going to say your logical choice would be a Z1.

Your Panasonic will not even come close to matching your FX1s, if that is a consideration.

If you jump into AVCHD enjoy. I found it to be a stupid mess, but your experience might be better.

I don't think you will be satisfied until you try the 150. The 4GB thing is something you can deal with, Panasonic has software for that I believe.

David J. Payne · December 14th, 2010, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

If you have 20 batteries for your FX1, I thought you were going to say your logical choice would be a Z1.

to be honest about 7 or 8 of those need binning and the others can be bundled with the FX1's when I sell so I'm not too worried. I wont have 4 cams anymore so will need half as many batteries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Your Panasonic will not even come close to matching your FX1s, if that is a consideration..

In what way?

Terry Martin · December 14th, 2010, 05:16 PM

David,

Just thought I would add a few comments to support the HMC150.

My team shoot 4 cam stage event video (always in poor light) with an HMC150, HMC40, XHA1, and Sony Z5.

Viewfinder: For run and gun, the HMC150 viewfinder is just fine for shot framing, and the autofocus is good enough to rely on. For tripod use, I just love the viewfinder because it displays the waveform monitor full time. I use a SmallHD DP1 or DP6 for shot framing (mounted to the tripod).

4 Gig Limit: No big deal. This is true for every digital format recording to a fat32 file system memory card. The key is how your editing software handles it. Assume will not be a problem for Adobe, but I can only confirm no problem for Avid MC5.

Quality: I have multicam edited more that 12 hours of these 4 cams pointed at the same targets. The HMC150 provides the greatest amount of excellent footage. The XHA1 and Z5 are comparable, and the HMC40 sometimes approaches the HMC150 if there is enough light. Most of the time the HMC150 and Z5 are similar, but when one stands out, it is always the HMC150, sharp and great color.

Low Light: The HMC150, Z5, and XHA1 are in the same ballpark at normal gain. At high gain the Z5 is poor, XHA1 better, HMC150 best. Also the HMC150 waveform monitor is wonderful to maximize tricky lighting conditions...which is most of the time.

Also, I'm going to try DSLR video soon with a Nikon D7000, but you will never see my HMC150 for sale.

David J. Payne · December 15th, 2010, 10:04 AM

thanks very much Terry, that's great new to hear. 95% of what i read about the HMC150 is good so you can't really beat that.

I downloaded some raw HMC150 footage today and I'm very impressed for the price, I think its just what I'm after.

David J. Payne · December 24th, 2010, 07:23 AM

after receiving my HMC150 one interesting thing I found compared to the FX1 is that I can use 1/25 shutter if desperate for light.

On the FX1 it would be way too slow and the jitter/blur etc made it unusable. Although I've only tested very very quickly, it seems that 1/25 is actually useable on the HMC150.

Does this sound right?

Tom Hardwick · December 24th, 2010, 07:28 AM

It doesn't sound right at all. 1/25th sec is that shutter speed regardless of the capture - Video8, DV or AVCHD. You'll get exactly the same image blur with either camera and I've never found this to be a viable option - upping the gain is always more acceptable (unless, of course, you're shooting motionless objects with a stationery camera).

tom.

Russ Ivey · December 27th, 2010, 02:24 PM

I agree with Tom. You never want to mess with the shutter speed unless it's the very last resort.

Jeff Harper · December 27th, 2010, 04:19 PM

You probably tested it on a still object, little to no motion. If you had tried that slow shutter speed under normal circumstances it would have been quite blurry. If you are that desperate for light you'll need more light or gain as has been said. The 150 does high gain with relatively little grain, that is one of it's best qualities.

David J. Payne · December 31st, 2010, 06:42 AM

yeah i did notice how good the gain looks when doing some tests yesterday. However I'm still convinced that the FX1 is noticeably more jumpy (not really blur - admit thats the same, but i'd only use this to film virtually stationary cut aways during dark wedding speeches) than the HMC150.

I did some test footage so perhaps when i cut it together and look at it on the big screen I'll notice that its not as acceptable as I thought it was.

I couldn't work out why it would be any difference as I know 1/25th is 1/25th but I was unsure of whether the progressive vs interlaced thing came into it but I assume not...

I'll have a look at the footage tonight.

The HMC150 is noticeably better (on 1/50th) than the FX1 so I'm happy in that regard. What I dislike about the HMC150 is the noisy and slow servo zoom and also the fact that on the FX1 I used to rack focus quite a lot but when I try to get the hugely out of focus shot on the HMc150 before pulling focus, I find I don't get anywhere near as out of focus and it also takes 4 or 5 revolutions of the focus ring to sometimes get focus. It's so frustrating! I also wish cameras enabled focus assist whilst recording)

Also seems to be quite a bit of hiss on the internal mic of the HMC150. I'll obviously rarely use it but is this normal? I had the audio turned up to about 6 if I remember right.

Jeff Harper · December 31st, 2010, 07:24 AM

The onboard audio on your camera is of the lowest quality. Yes what you hear is normal. You must use a shotgun if you need quality audio with that camera.

Russ Ivey · December 31st, 2010, 08:50 AM

I was also quite impressed with the gain function on the HMC150 when I got mine. I like to use the Letus Extreme 35mm Adaptor and there are times when I need the gain cranked up a little to compensate for the loss of light that the adaptor causes. The gain does a great job of not causing any noticeable grain effect when I use it. Although, using more lights on the subject is of course my choice to compensate when applicable.

Tom Hardwick · December 31st, 2010, 09:36 AM

David - differential focus should be just as easy to obtain with the Panasonic as it is with the FX1 as both use 1"/3 chips. The FX1 has a 54mm focal length as against the 150's 51mm, so there's little difference there - especially when lens build tolerances are taken into account.

The 150 does indeed have focus assist, but it's a disabled feature in the FX1 (the Z1 has it). Interestingly Panasonic has never made great play on this - they seem to prefer the fact that you can enlarge (zoom in on) the view, whereas proper focus assist is where - while you're in auto focus - you can tell the camera to focus on the fore or the background.

tom.

Guy McLoughlin · December 31st, 2010, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Payne

Also seems to be quite a bit of hiss on the internal mic of the HMC150. I'll obviously rarely use it but is this normal? I had the audio turned up to about 6 if I remember right.

The built in mic is junk. The mic that most ENG style shooters like for this camera is this one:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/495302-REG/Audio_Technica_AT875R_AT875_Short_Condenser_Shotgun.html

I've owned my HMC-150 for almost 2 years now, and I absolutely love it. It's definitely worth spending time to learn how to create custom Scene settings, as these can greatly change the look of your image, especially when it comes to image noise.

David J. Payne · January 1st, 2011, 03:28 AM

thanks for the replies everyone.

I have a sennheiser ME66 currently and I was worried it would be a bit long but I have fitted it and it doesnt appear visible in the viewfinder so would you recommend this mic? The thing I do like about it is that it is very directional which is good for wedding speeches in a noisy environment (yes I do use portable recorders as well but I like a decent back up audio just in case)

With my FX1 there is noticeably less hiss using the onboard mic. When filming for example a brides morning prep I dont use much if any of the audio thats why I prefer the light camera and more moveability (have I just invented that word!? sorry...) that having no shotgun gives so I did hope for a slightly better onboard mic. However i have still barely used the HMC150.

The main issue really is this focus ring.
I appreciate your input Tom and would love to know more as I am definite that if I turn the ring 180 degrees with the iris open on the FX1 I get a massively out of focus picture which I can then pull back in and I like the look. When i do this with the HMC150 there is barely any change in the picture... in order to get a similar result (still not anywhere near as out of focus) I need to turn it 360 degrees maybe 5 times....

If this does sound wrong I will do a more scientific test later today and maybe post 2 clips to vimeo to highlight what I mean.

That said, I bought the camera for 3 main reasons... wide filed of view, good low light performance and tapeless workflow, all of which I'm really happy with. (would have loved to have had a longer zoom range than the FX1 as well a wider field of view but I suppose I can't have everything!)

Tom Hardwick · January 1st, 2011, 03:44 AM

The ME66 is a beautiful mic and perfect for the job, but it'll need a good wind-shield outdoors and a good suspension system to isolate it from the HMC. Do some tests in quiet surroundings and listen for any grumbles and rumbles on the audio with the mic in the HMC's mic holder.

I now see you're not talking about differential focus Dave, you're talking about starting a shot way out of focus and pulling it into focus. With my FX1 I've been filming a daisy on the lawn in big close-up, then simply flicked the focus lever down to the infinity mark, which snaps the focus to the bride and groom over there by the trees. This should work well on the Panasonic too.

Maybe your, 'I need to turn it 360 degrees maybe 5 times' means you're starting at infinity, whereas you should start from closeup for the greatest pull-focus effect.

tom.

December 14th, 2010, 08:40 AM	#61
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	If you have 20 batteries for your FX1, I thought you were going to say your logical choice would be a Z1. Your Panasonic will not even come close to matching your FX1s, if that is a consideration. If you jump into AVCHD enjoy. I found it to be a stupid mess, but your experience might be better. I don't think you will be satisfied until you try the 150. The 4GB thing is something you can deal with, Panasonic has software for that I believe. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

December 27th, 2010, 02:24 PM	#67
Russ Ivey Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Woodstock, GA Posts: 89	Agree w/ Tom I agree with Tom. You never want to mess with the shutter speed unless it's the very last resort.

December 27th, 2010, 04:19 PM	#68
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	You probably tested it on a still object, little to no motion. If you had tried that slow shutter speed under normal circumstances it would have been quite blurry. If you are that desperate for light you'll need more light or gain as has been said. The 150 does high gain with relatively little grain, that is one of it's best qualities. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

December 31st, 2010, 07:24 AM	#70
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	The onboard audio on your camera is of the lowest quality. Yes what you hear is normal. You must use a shotgun if you need quality audio with that camera. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described." Last edited by Jeff Harper; December 31st, 2010 at 08:54 AM.

December 31st, 2010, 08:50 AM	#71
Russ Ivey Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Woodstock, GA Posts: 89	The Gain I was also quite impressed with the gain function on the HMC150 when I got mine. I like to use the Letus Extreme 35mm Adaptor and there are times when I need the gain cranked up a little to compensate for the loss of light that the adaptor causes. The gain does a great job of not causing any noticeable grain effect when I use it. Although, using more lights on the subject is of course my choice to compensate when applicable.

December 14th, 2010, 05:16 PM	#63
Terry Martin Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Palo Alto, California Posts: 100	David, Just thought I would add a few comments to support the HMC150. My team shoot 4 cam stage event video (always in poor light) with an HMC150, HMC40, XHA1, and Sony Z5. Viewfinder: For run and gun, the HMC150 viewfinder is just fine for shot framing, and the autofocus is good enough to rely on. For tripod use, I just love the viewfinder because it displays the waveform monitor full time. I use a SmallHD DP1 or DP6 for shot framing (mounted to the tripod). 4 Gig Limit: No big deal. This is true for every digital format recording to a fat32 file system memory card. The key is how your editing software handles it. Assume will not be a problem for Adobe, but I can only confirm no problem for Avid MC5. Quality: I have multicam edited more that 12 hours of these 4 cams pointed at the same targets. The HMC150 provides the greatest amount of excellent footage. The XHA1 and Z5 are comparable, and the HMC40 sometimes approaches the HMC150 if there is enough light. Most of the time the HMC150 and Z5 are similar, but when one stands out, it is always the HMC150, sharp and great color. Low Light: The HMC150, Z5, and XHA1 are in the same ballpark at normal gain. At high gain the Z5 is poor, XHA1 better, HMC150 best. Also the HMC150 waveform monitor is wonderful to maximize tricky lighting conditions...which is most of the time. Also, I'm going to try DSLR video soon with a Nikon D7000, but you will never see my HMC150 for sale.

December 15th, 2010, 10:04 AM	#64
David J. Payne Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southend-On-Sea, England Posts: 368	thanks very much Terry, that's great new to hear. 95% of what i read about the HMC150 is good so you can't really beat that. I downloaded some raw HMC150 footage today and I'm very impressed for the price, I think its just what I'm after.

December 24th, 2010, 07:23 AM	#65
David J. Payne Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southend-On-Sea, England Posts: 368	after receiving my HMC150 one interesting thing I found compared to the FX1 is that I can use 1/25 shutter if desperate for light. On the FX1 it would be way too slow and the jitter/blur etc made it unusable. Although I've only tested very very quickly, it seems that 1/25 is actually useable on the HMC150. Does this sound right?

December 24th, 2010, 07:28 AM	#66
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	It doesn't sound right at all. 1/25th sec is that shutter speed regardless of the capture - Video8, DV or AVCHD. You'll get exactly the same image blur with either camera and I've never found this to be a viable option - upping the gain is always more acceptable (unless, of course, you're shooting motionless objects with a stationery camera). tom.

December 31st, 2010, 06:42 AM	#69
David J. Payne Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southend-On-Sea, England Posts: 368	yeah i did notice how good the gain looks when doing some tests yesterday. However I'm still convinced that the FX1 is noticeably more jumpy (not really blur - admit thats the same, but i'd only use this to film virtually stationary cut aways during dark wedding speeches) than the HMC150. I did some test footage so perhaps when i cut it together and look at it on the big screen I'll notice that its not as acceptable as I thought it was. I couldn't work out why it would be any difference as I know 1/25th is 1/25th but I was unsure of whether the progressive vs interlaced thing came into it but I assume not... I'll have a look at the footage tonight. The HMC150 is noticeably better (on 1/50th) than the FX1 so I'm happy in that regard. What I dislike about the HMC150 is the noisy and slow servo zoom and also the fact that on the FX1 I used to rack focus quite a lot but when I try to get the hugely out of focus shot on the HMc150 before pulling focus, I find I don't get anywhere near as out of focus and it also takes 4 or 5 revolutions of the focus ring to sometimes get focus. It's so frustrating! I also wish cameras enabled focus assist whilst recording) Also seems to be quite a bit of hiss on the internal mic of the HMC150. I'll obviously rarely use it but is this normal? I had the audio turned up to about 6 if I remember right.

December 31st, 2010, 09:36 AM	#72
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	David - differential focus should be just as easy to obtain with the Panasonic as it is with the FX1 as both use 1"/3 chips. The FX1 has a 54mm focal length as against the 150's 51mm, so there's little difference there - especially when lens build tolerances are taken into account. The 150 does indeed have focus assist, but it's a disabled feature in the FX1 (the Z1 has it). Interestingly Panasonic has never made great play on this - they seem to prefer the fact that you can enlarge (zoom in on) the view, whereas proper focus assist is where - while you're in auto focus - you can tell the camera to focus on the fore or the background. tom.

January 1st, 2011, 03:28 AM	#74
David J. Payne Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southend-On-Sea, England Posts: 368	thanks for the replies everyone. I have a sennheiser ME66 currently and I was worried it would be a bit long but I have fitted it and it doesnt appear visible in the viewfinder so would you recommend this mic? The thing I do like about it is that it is very directional which is good for wedding speeches in a noisy environment (yes I do use portable recorders as well but I like a decent back up audio just in case) With my FX1 there is noticeably less hiss using the onboard mic. When filming for example a brides morning prep I dont use much if any of the audio thats why I prefer the light camera and more moveability (have I just invented that word!? sorry...) that having no shotgun gives so I did hope for a slightly better onboard mic. However i have still barely used the HMC150. The main issue really is this focus ring. I appreciate your input Tom and would love to know more as I am definite that if I turn the ring 180 degrees with the iris open on the FX1 I get a massively out of focus picture which I can then pull back in and I like the look. When i do this with the HMC150 there is barely any change in the picture... in order to get a similar result (still not anywhere near as out of focus) I need to turn it 360 degrees maybe 5 times.... If this does sound wrong I will do a more scientific test later today and maybe post 2 clips to vimeo to highlight what I mean. That said, I bought the camera for 3 main reasons... wide filed of view, good low light performance and tapeless workflow, all of which I'm really happy with. (would have loved to have had a longer zoom range than the FX1 as well a wider field of view but I suppose I can't have everything!)

January 1st, 2011, 03:44 AM	#75
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	The ME66 is a beautiful mic and perfect for the job, but it'll need a good wind-shield outdoors and a good suspension system to isolate it from the HMC. Do some tests in quiet surroundings and listen for any grumbles and rumbles on the audio with the mic in the HMC's mic holder. I now see you're not talking about differential focus Dave, you're talking about starting a shot way out of focus and pulling it into focus. With my FX1 I've been filming a daisy on the lawn in big close-up, then simply flicked the focus lever down to the infinity mark, which snaps the focus to the bride and groom over there by the trees. This should work well on the Panasonic too. Maybe your, 'I need to turn it 360 degrees maybe 5 times' means you're starting at infinity, whereas you should start from closeup for the greatest pull-focus effect. tom.