How I plan to upconvert VHS to HD. I need someone to show me what it would look like. at DVinfo.net

Robert McGee · July 8th, 2007, 11:57 PM

In 2005 I began stooting to movies back to back but I shot them on VHS-C. I soon wanted to upgrade to High Definition and at the same time get my first two movies avalible on HD DVD and Blu-Ray disk.

I didn't know how to go about it until I saw these DVD players and recorders that upconvert to 1080i, and that point I thought that would be the most logical choice but then I was amazed that they now had players that would upconvert to 1080p. I got out my tapes, hooked up the camera to the DVD recorder, set it on HQ(1 hour) and started recording. Now my original tapes have been backed up to 3 DVD-Rs but I don't have a capture card that can capture 1080p and I don't have an HDTV set either.

I would like someone if they can to post up some screenshots of VHS footage that has already went throw this process and do a comparison. One screenshot that is SD stretched to 1440x1080 and an HD image from the upconvertion at full 1440x1080 as it would be seen. And use MPEG-2 SD and HD video because that's what I got I just want to see how the image would look for now.

Steve House · July 9th, 2007, 12:46 AM

The image will never look any better than it is on the VHS tapes. VHS is 250 line resolution, half that of even a conventional DVD. Once you lose resolution it's gone forever and no format conversion process can ever bring it back. Spending the extra money to record to HD will be wasted.

Harm Millaard · July 9th, 2007, 01:58 AM

VHS is 250 lines max, but in reality often lower. To get an idea of what it may look like, take a short clip from the internet or anywhere else that has a resolution of 320 x 240 and enlarge that to 1440 x 1080. This will give you an idea of how it will look. You will see that it is not worth watching, as Steve already mentioned.

David Rice · July 9th, 2007, 02:39 AM

I suggest that you digitize and save your old VHS footage. Someday, someone will develop a software program that will improve the quality of the video by creating the extra lines. Enhance video like they can do with photo's. It's just a matter of time. The demand is sure there for it.

Andris Krastins · July 9th, 2007, 02:50 AM

How can you enhance something that's not there in the first place?
It's an educated guess at best. Don't tell me a software can create wrinkles, individual tree leaves, etc. that are not seen on the original.
There's 250 lines of original information and it will never be more original lines for that video than those 250 original lines.
At least, imho.

Robert McGee · July 9th, 2007, 04:46 AM

There is no major image loss taking place. When I viewed the DVDs after I was done, it was just like watching the original VHS tapes. Even though their are only 250 horizontal lines on VHS as compaired to 480 horizontal lines on DVD, what you should have in the end is a format that will last longer for years to come but as far as going up to HD is concerned, 99% of HD DVD and Blu-Ray disk titles are widescreen 16:9(1920x1080i/p) but being shot on a fullscreen 4:3 format. The new resulting NEW comercial DVD will be standerd fullscreen while the comercial HD DVD and Blu-Ray will be Pillarboxed(black bars on the left and right sides of the screen)

But hear is another question to go along with what I have already asked.
1. You hook up your VCR to your 1080p HDTV and play the tape.
2. You hook up your top of the line DVD player with 1080p upconvertion technology, watching the same footage backed up on a DVD.

Which one will give you a best image?

Steve House · July 9th, 2007, 05:41 AM

I'm just guessing since I don't have an HD DVD or BluRay player or recorder to test it with but I'd wager the two will look close to identical with perhaps a slight edge going to the original tape. (To go from tape to DVD requires an analog transfer and you'll always lose some quality going from one generation to the next, especially if you don't have time-base correction which you don't when going composite or s-video out to video in.) When I play a conventional VHS tape on my HD TV it looks okay, as good as it can get given the source, but it's obviously not HD or even SD/DVD quality and my set has a line doubler that upconverts SD to 960 or 1080i

Harm Millaard · July 9th, 2007, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert McGee

what you should have in the end is a format that will last longer for years to come

Have you ever considered the fact that the longevity of VHS(-C) tapes is over 20 years if stored properly (dark, vertical, constant temperature and humidity) and is way better than the approximate 5 year lifespan of DVD R?

Juni Zhao · July 9th, 2007, 07:28 AM

If you keep the DVD-R in a safe place then how can the disc end its life in 5 years? I have archived a lot materials on DVD-Rs since 2000, I am concerned.

Harm Millaard · July 9th, 2007, 08:02 AM

I started video around 1978 and still have all my original tapes. I have not encountered one single problem with playback of any tape, whether it was VHS-C or later Hi-8 or mini-DV, even though some are nearly 30 years old. Even Video 2000 tapes from that long gone era play fine and do not show noticeable color loss or other artefact's. OTOH, I have had several people for whom I made DVD's come back, complaining that they could no longer play their DVD's, which were burned several years back on what at that moment was a reputable disk like the Ritek G04 or even Verbatim. And indeed it showed in all cases the disk did no longer play on several set top boxes and neither did it play in the PC. Sometimes this may have been caused by scratching, but also by disk rot. I have had a terrible time in recreating these discs, even though they were only 3 or 4 years old. Most of the time I had to revert to the original tapes or the master tape on which I store the final version.

I always advise to keep your original tape and store it properly. If disaster strikes, you can at least re-edit the original material. There have been numerous mentions on the longevity of DVD R's on the internet and most of them show that the claimed longevity is never met and is closer to around 5 years. This general tendency is confirmed by my own experiences, but is by no means a rule. Just be careful and keep your original tapes in a safe place.

Andris Krastins · July 9th, 2007, 08:06 AM

I have a similar experience. I can playback video tapes from the early 90s, but some cd's from 2000 and 2002 have errors and can not be read, usually in part.
Those were strictly backup cd's and all that time spent in a shelf where sunlight does not reach.

David Rice · July 9th, 2007, 09:52 AM

Instand HD by Red Giant is one of the new Softwares being developed to upconvert DV by using scaling (determining the missing lines in video and replacing them). An Independent review of the product can be viewed here: http://www.lafcpug.org/reviews/review_instant_hd.html

I just wish they would make a plugin for Vegas.

Chris Harris · July 9th, 2007, 12:00 PM

It's not possible to take a source and add information that's not there. It's just not possible. Garbage in, garbage out. You can add filters and color correct to improve your results, but that's about all you can do.

Boyd Ostroff · July 9th, 2007, 12:04 PM

I played around a little with the demo version of Genuine Fractals which is supposed to do a good job on enlarging still images. The improvement is mostly things like reducing stair-stepping in diagonal lines and such. And it doesn't seem to make much difference unless you're really doing extreme enlargement. For 200% or 300% blowups Photoshop's bicubic interpolation looked just as good to me.

But I have to agree with you; there's no way to get around the basic principle of "garbage in, garbage out"...

David Rice · July 9th, 2007, 01:08 PM

"garbage in, garbage out"...

That is true today. But, software will continue to evolve at a rapid rate.
As I stated above, "someday" in the not too distant future, there will be software that will be able to create the missing lines, and upconvert any video to HDV.
So hang onto that old video. Ye of little faith....

July 8th, 2007, 11:57 PM	#1
Robert McGee Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: York, south carolina Posts: 24	How I plan to upconvert VHS to HD. I need someone to show me what it would look like. In 2005 I began stooting to movies back to back but I shot them on VHS-C. I soon wanted to upgrade to High Definition and at the same time get my first two movies avalible on HD DVD and Blu-Ray disk. I didn't know how to go about it until I saw these DVD players and recorders that upconvert to 1080i, and that point I thought that would be the most logical choice but then I was amazed that they now had players that would upconvert to 1080p. I got out my tapes, hooked up the camera to the DVD recorder, set it on HQ(1 hour) and started recording. Now my original tapes have been backed up to 3 DVD-Rs but I don't have a capture card that can capture 1080p and I don't have an HDTV set either. I would like someone if they can to post up some screenshots of VHS footage that has already went throw this process and do a comparison. One screenshot that is SD stretched to 1440x1080 and an HD image from the upconvertion at full 1440x1080 as it would be seen. And use MPEG-2 SD and HD video because that's what I got I just want to see how the image would look for now.

July 9th, 2007, 12:46 AM	#2
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	The image will never look any better than it is on the VHS tapes. VHS is 250 line resolution, half that of even a conventional DVD. Once you lose resolution it's gone forever and no format conversion process can ever bring it back. Spending the extra money to record to HD will be wasted. __________________ Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!

July 9th, 2007, 02:50 AM	#5
Andris Krastins Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Lielvārde, Latvia Posts: 326	How can you enhance something that's not there in the first place? It's an educated guess at best. Don't tell me a software can create wrinkles, individual tree leaves, etc. that are not seen on the original. There's 250 lines of original information and it will never be more original lines for that video than those 250 original lines. At least, imho. __________________ Our Fire Films - a free film project.

July 9th, 2007, 04:46 AM	#6
Robert McGee Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: York, south carolina Posts: 24	There is no major image loss taking place. When I viewed the DVDs after I was done, it was just like watching the original VHS tapes. Even though their are only 250 horizontal lines on VHS as compaired to 480 horizontal lines on DVD, what you should have in the end is a format that will last longer for years to come but as far as going up to HD is concerned, 99% of HD DVD and Blu-Ray disk titles are widescreen 16:9(1920x1080i/p) but being shot on a fullscreen 4:3 format. The new resulting NEW comercial DVD will be standerd fullscreen while the comercial HD DVD and Blu-Ray will be Pillarboxed(black bars on the left and right sides of the screen) But hear is another question to go along with what I have already asked. 1. You hook up your VCR to your 1080p HDTV and play the tape. 2. You hook up your top of the line DVD player with 1080p upconvertion technology, watching the same footage backed up on a DVD. Which one will give you a best image? Last edited by Robert McGee; July 9th, 2007 at 04:58 AM. Reason: Omiting already known information.

July 9th, 2007, 05:41 AM	#7
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	I'm just guessing since I don't have an HD DVD or BluRay player or recorder to test it with but I'd wager the two will look close to identical with perhaps a slight edge going to the original tape. (To go from tape to DVD requires an analog transfer and you'll always lose some quality going from one generation to the next, especially if you don't have time-base correction which you don't when going composite or s-video out to video in.) When I play a conventional VHS tape on my HD TV it looks okay, as good as it can get given the source, but it's obviously not HD or even SD/DVD quality and my set has a line doubler that upconverts SD to 960 or 1080i __________________ Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!

July 9th, 2007, 01:58 AM	#3
Harm Millaard Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands Posts: 1,832	VHS is 250 lines max, but in reality often lower. To get an idea of what it may look like, take a short clip from the internet or anywhere else that has a resolution of 320 x 240 and enlarge that to 1440 x 1080. This will give you an idea of how it will look. You will see that it is not worth watching, as Steve already mentioned.

July 9th, 2007, 02:39 AM	#4
David Rice Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sitka Alaska Posts: 470	I suggest that you digitize and save your old VHS footage. Someday, someone will develop a software program that will improve the quality of the video by creating the extra lines. Enhance video like they can do with photo's. It's just a matter of time. The demand is sure there for it.

July 9th, 2007, 07:28 AM	#9
Juni Zhao Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Andover, Ma Posts: 102	If you keep the DVD-R in a safe place then how can the disc end its life in 5 years? I have archived a lot materials on DVD-Rs since 2000, I am concerned.

July 9th, 2007, 08:02 AM	#10
Harm Millaard Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands Posts: 1,832	I started video around 1978 and still have all my original tapes. I have not encountered one single problem with playback of any tape, whether it was VHS-C or later Hi-8 or mini-DV, even though some are nearly 30 years old. Even Video 2000 tapes from that long gone era play fine and do not show noticeable color loss or other artefact's. OTOH, I have had several people for whom I made DVD's come back, complaining that they could no longer play their DVD's, which were burned several years back on what at that moment was a reputable disk like the Ritek G04 or even Verbatim. And indeed it showed in all cases the disk did no longer play on several set top boxes and neither did it play in the PC. Sometimes this may have been caused by scratching, but also by disk rot. I have had a terrible time in recreating these discs, even though they were only 3 or 4 years old. Most of the time I had to revert to the original tapes or the master tape on which I store the final version. I always advise to keep your original tape and store it properly. If disaster strikes, you can at least re-edit the original material. There have been numerous mentions on the longevity of DVD R's on the internet and most of them show that the claimed longevity is never met and is closer to around 5 years. This general tendency is confirmed by my own experiences, but is by no means a rule. Just be careful and keep your original tapes in a safe place.

July 9th, 2007, 08:06 AM	#11
Andris Krastins Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Lielvārde, Latvia Posts: 326	I have a similar experience. I can playback video tapes from the early 90s, but some cd's from 2000 and 2002 have errors and can not be read, usually in part. Those were strictly backup cd's and all that time spent in a shelf where sunlight does not reach. __________________ Our Fire Films - a free film project.

July 9th, 2007, 09:52 AM	#12
David Rice Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sitka Alaska Posts: 470	Not Possible? Instand HD by Red Giant is one of the new Softwares being developed to upconvert DV by using scaling (determining the missing lines in video and replacing them). An Independent review of the product can be viewed here: http://www.lafcpug.org/reviews/review_instant_hd.html I just wish they would make a plugin for Vegas.

July 9th, 2007, 12:00 PM	#13
Chris Harris Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 487	It's not possible to take a source and add information that's not there. It's just not possible. Garbage in, garbage out. You can add filters and color correct to improve your results, but that's about all you can do.

July 9th, 2007, 12:04 PM	#14
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	I played around a little with the demo version of Genuine Fractals which is supposed to do a good job on enlarging still images. The improvement is mostly things like reducing stair-stepping in diagonal lines and such. And it doesn't seem to make much difference unless you're really doing extreme enlargement. For 200% or 300% blowups Photoshop's bicubic interpolation looked just as good to me. But I have to agree with you; there's no way to get around the basic principle of "garbage in, garbage out"...

July 9th, 2007, 01:08 PM	#15
David Rice Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sitka Alaska Posts: 470	"garbage in, garbage out"... "garbage in, garbage out"... That is true today. But, software will continue to evolve at a rapid rate. As I stated above, "someday" in the not too distant future, there will be software that will be able to create the missing lines, and upconvert any video to HDV. So hang onto that old video. Ye of little faith....